What is missing? All-for-Reef vs changing water.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. Are carbon / ozone effective for these compounds?

Some yes, some no.

 

[biom]

The corals from my avatar were growing in a system with no water changes. Still I am sure they would grow even faster with some water changes. Just saying keeping nice reef with no water changes is possible but doing water changes is much easier and safe way of reef keeping for the average reefer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks. Are carbon / ozone effective for these compounds?

FWIW, I discuss organics in seawater here:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

And how ozone impacts organics here:

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[Hans-Werner]

I also thought about the dilution theory. The cause why I don't use this explanation in first line is the following: When I do a 10 to 15 % water change, 85 to 90 % of the detrimental compounds are still in the tank. Is this dilution to 85 to 90 % enough to make a visible difference? Maybe if there is a kind of threshold, for example an inhibitory effect of some kind of organics to calcium carbonate precipitation.

Another possible explanation is the trace elements theory. Maybe the additive is optimizing some trace elements while others are not optimized. The missing trace elements are supplemented by water changes. This could also explain the results I see.

So I am still open to any idea. Maybe I will come to a conviction some day ...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I also thought about the dilution theory. The cause why I don't use this explanation in first line is the following: When I do a 10 to 15 % water change, 85 to 90 % of the detrimental compounds are still in the tank. Is this dilution to 85 to 90 % enough to make a visible difference? Maybe if there is a kind of threshold, for example an inhibitory effect of some kind of organics to calcium carbonate precipitation.

Another possible explanation is the trace elements theory. Maybe the additive is optimizing some trace elements while others are not optimized. The missing trace elements are supplemented by water changes. This could also explain the results I see.

So I am still open to any idea. Maybe I will come to a conviction some day ...

Those small bits removed add up for things that are long lasting (and maybe slow building) in the tank.

This is a sort of generic math model of what can happen to anything that starts at 100 (any units), and slowly accumulates with no water changes, or declines with 7.5, 15, and 30% monthly water changes. The effect after a few months can be quite dramatic.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Those small bits removed add up for things that are long lasting (and maybe slow building) in the tank.

This is a sort of generic math model of what can happen to anything that starts at 100 (any units), and slowly accumulates with no water changes, or declines with 7.5, 15, and 30% monthly water changes. The effect after a few months can be quite dramatic.

I have used such a calculation and the resulting saw tooth diagramm in one of my early articles around 28 years ago.

It was just upside down compared to yours and showed how trace elements concentrations could drop without and with water changes. It also showed that water changes can't compensate for heavy trace elements consumptions, except the salt has overconcentrations of these trace elements.

 

[roggy23]

I think I have a theory. I had the exact similar happen when I was just doing all for reef. I was missing something as my montipora caps were dull and not doing good. ( I had no acropora yet ). I started a new method called reef moonshiners which I still do with all for reef. The main difference I think what all for reef really lacked for me was iodine. It came back zero and I started to dose this daily my montipora looked great. I would notice large water changes also fixed the montipora which is similar to what you’re saying. But now I don’t do water changes. Well 10 gallons a month on a 140 total to clean sand. My tank stays great but mainly I’m dosing iodine daily now. For this reason I think all for reef and reef moon shiners method is perfect which most don’t do. I haven’t found any minor elements to be too high only too low which I dose and correct via reef moonshiner.

How much iodine do you dose daily?

 

[christwendt]

How much iodine do you dose daily?

Iodine is tricky to dial in. With reef moonshiners you go by drops and test then adjust drops. So I’m currently at 9 drops daily of sea Chem reef iodide. This maintained 40 iodine on icp test. I’m shooting for 80 iodine on icp. So I may be upping to like 12 drops daily when I get my next results back. Iodine is best dosed daily so you don’t get giant fluctuations. This is for a 140 total tank volume.

 

[christwendt]

ICP based testing and dosing is a fine method, IMO, but I think it being perfect is an exaggeration. There are limitations to ICP testing (accuracy, lack of chemical speciation, detection limits, etc.) which make it a bit less than perfect, not even considering the costs.

I do get perfect is a hard to use word. Nothing is perfect in this world. However I’m keeping delicate acropora since my tank was 6 months old. I credit it to single dosing each trace elements via icp and adding Australian live rock. It’s hard to know what variables exactly have allowed my tank to be stable so early and support acropora but quickly after starting reef moon shiners my tank exploded. I haven’t had any results come back that didn’t make sense either. For example if I increase iodine daily drops my icp comes back increased. It is an added cost but almost balances out the cost of salt for the icp tests. The initial investment did set me back almost 300$.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do get perfect is a hard to use word. Nothing is perfect in this world. However I’m keeping delicate acropora since my tank was 6 months old. I credit it to single dosing each trace elements via icp and adding Australian live rock. It’s hard to know what variables exactly have allowed my tank to be stable so early and support acropora but quickly after starting reef moon shiners my tank exploded. I haven’t had any results come back that didn’t make sense either. For example if I increase iodine daily drops my icp comes back increased. It is an added cost but almost balances out the cost of salt for the icp tests. The initial investment did set me back almost 300$.

Well, I'm glad you are happy with this method.

 

[Anxur]

La mia osservazione personale è un po' strana e sembra un po' contraddittoria: vedo un miglioramento lento ma molto continuo nella crescita e nel colore quando somministro All-For-Reef. Tuttavia, vedo anche una migliore apertura dei polipi e miglioramenti dopo aver effettuato un cambio d'acqua con Pro-Reef.

Come è possibile? L'additivo sta migliorando la qualità dell'acqua salata, ma anche l'aggiunta di acqua salata fresca sembra un miglioramento? :faccia-con-sopracciglio-alzato: In qualche modo consumo e crescita sembrano creare la propria qualità. L'ho notato ripetutamente anche quando la crescita dei coralli in una vasca appena installata sta prendendo piede e sto iniziando a dosare Ca, KH e oligoelementi.

Il consumo di macronutrienti potrebbe svolgere un ruolo in queste osservazioni.

Assuming that the level of trace elements and macroecoelements is not compensated by a change of 50 liters out of 350 litres.. By loading the salt I am going to compensate for the deficiencies.. I'm seeing amazing effects...

I use Tropic Marine Pro Reef for my water change..

TMPR doesn't have enough kh.. So add 15 ml of Nyos Alkalinity Powder and.... 15-30 ml of AFR

@Randy Holmes-Farley what do you think?


I think that loading the salt compensates for the needs and shortcomings... Too bad that All for reef doesn't have potassium inside...

@Lou Ekus

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Assuming that the level of trace elements and macroecoelements is not compensated by a change of 50 liters out of 350 litres.. By loading the salt I am going to compensate for the deficiencies.. I'm seeing amazing effects...

I use Tropic Marine Pro Reef for my water change..

TMPR doesn't have enough kh.. So add 15 ml of Nyos Alkalinity Powder and.... 15-30 ml of AFR

@Randy Holmes-Farley what do you think?


I think that loading the salt compensates for the needs and shortcomings... Too bad that All for reef doesn't have potassium inside...

@Lou Ekus

I am concerned about two things with adding alk to new salt water. I'd suggest calculating how high it is getting.

1. Adding AFR to stored salt water will potentially allow it to be metabolized to bicarbonate, which may boost alk high enough to precipitate calcium carbonate in the new salt water.

2. Adding sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide can also risk precipitation of calcium carbonate in the new salt water.

 

[Anxur]

I am concerned about two things with adding alk to new salt water. I'd suggest calculating how high it is getting.

1. Adding AFR to stored salt water will potentially allow it to be metabolized to bicarbonate, which may boost alk high enough to precipitate calcium carbonate in the new salt water.

2. Adding sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide can also risk precipitation of calcium carbonate in the new salt water.

After the water change, since I overdid it with Alkalinity Nyos, I had an increase of 2 dkh.. While the Ca is always at 400.. I believe, Randy, that All for Reef is practically synthetic salt as is the salt of any brand we use for changes.. By adding all for reef (or any other powder or liquid) to the gear water we will simply increase the individual values of the elements...
If I have 350 liters aquarium (for example) with 370 potassium ppm...

If I change 50 liters with tropic marin pro reef, with this salt, my 50 liters will be 440 ppm potassium..

440 x 50 = 22000 ppm
370 x 300 = 111000 ppm (main tank)

111000 + 22000 = 133000 ppm potassium

133000 : 350 liters = 380 K

Simple... Already with a lot of salt, if I have a notable deficiency in the tank, I haven't made up for anything.

I was talking to @Big E .. For example, he uses instant ocean which has an average of 350 ppm K. He must add potassium to the exchange water... I believe that what I am undertaking is a very clever way of avoiding dosing out a thousand bottles and additives, loading the salt with those elements that tend to wear out in the tank..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After the water change, since I overdid it with Alkalinity Nyos, I had an increase of 2 dkh.. While the Ca is always at 400.. I believe, Randy, that All for Reef is practically synthetic salt as is the salt of any brand we use for changes.. By adding all for reef (or any other powder or liquid) to the gear water we will simply increase the individual values of the elements...
If I have 350 liters aquarium (for example) with 370 potassium ppm...

If I change 50 liters with tropic marin pro reef, with this salt, my 50 liters will be 440 ppm potassium..

440 x 50 = 22000 ppm
370 x 300 = 111000 ppm (main tank)

111000 + 22000 = 133000 ppm potassium

133000 : 350 liters = 380 K

Simple... Already with a lot of salt, if I have a notable deficiency in the tank, I haven't made up for anything.

I was talking to @Big E .. For example, he uses instant ocean which has an average of 350 ppm K. He must add potassium to the exchange water... I believe that what I am undertaking is a very clever way of avoiding dosing out a thousand bottles and additives, loading the salt with those elements that tend to wear out in the tank..

All for Reef is not salt. It is calcium formate plus some magnesium and trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I believe that what I am undertaking is a very clever way of avoiding dosing out a thousand bottles and additives, loading the salt with those elements that tend to wear out in the tank..

it is fine to put some things in new salt water. Alkalinity is not one of them.

 

[Anxur]

it is fine to put some things in new salt water. Alkalinity is not one of them.

Why? What's Change adding to new salt Walter or in a tank?

 

[Anxur]

All for Reef is not salt. It is calcium formate plus some magnesium and trace elements.

It's not possible to add all for reef in 50 liters water change?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why? What's Change adding to new salt Walter or in a tank?

I’ve already stated the problem, but I’ll do the math if you like.

Suppose the tank consumes 1 dKH of alk per day, and you change 10% of the water every day (a very high change rate that will end up being very expensive) the new salt water needs to be 10 dKH higher than the tank to add that amount of alk.

If the new salt water is 17-20 dKH in alk, precipitation of calcium carbonate is very likely.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's not possible to add all for reef in 50 liters water change?

Well, it depends on how much AFR. The math does not work out to make new salt water to boost alk with AFR unless you mix it up fresh and then use it that day.

 

[Anxur]

Beh, dipende da quanto AFR. I calcoli non tornano per creare nuova acqua salata per potenziare l'alk con AFR a meno che non la mescoli fresca e poi la usi quel giorno.

With AFR my goal is improve trace elements