Updated Cycling Science thread 2020

[MnFish1]

in lieu of making a new thread this page here will be for 2021 updates


The Most Important Fundamental Change in 2021 Cycling rules for the hobby is the preparation for Fish Disease


you can see from the myriad 2020 examples logged a cycle is as good as done when you wet the tank, after a brief time delay we can exactly calculate before you set up the tank and so can every single reef tank entrant that has ever existed in a reefing convention.


Read this forum, and tell me if reefs under 8 mos old aren't in dire need of preps for fish disease. **the concern in cycling is no longer ammonia and nitrite, its quick disease wipeouts from skipping preps

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

so what are the ideal preps>

post some that are better, and better measured with feedback, than from that link above and we'll consider them. Can't be a thread about someone's single reef, needs to be a forum of pages using other's reefs and their unbiased feedback. under those constraints i expect zero alternate examples to be linked. its ok to insert solely examples of one person's reef who skipped preps and has no disease, I know that's all we can find lol.


my self-appointed job here is to relay reefing microbiology trends to you six years before they're formally adopted. if we dont get on fish disease now the entire world is going to hate our hobby.


(get a pico reef, gain the ability to never have to fallow and quaratine because you keep corals and inverts only, there's ways around these unfavorable preps )

I for one have no clue what you're requesting? 99 percent of threads on this site start with 'a single reef' or a question about 'a single reef' - which then leads to 'well I do this, and I do that, and this is better than that, etc etc'. So my guess is as well - you will have zero responses - because - there is no reasonable way to respond?

As to the rest - I would like some evidence that 'dry rock' is 'bad' and 'live rock' is 'good' for fish disease specifically. If I asked you to post the same types of threads to 'prove' your point, my guess is that would also be lacking. It is my position (mostly based on 'common sense') - that dry rock within a couple months is 'live rock'. There is no magic. Once you add fish, some CUC, etc. The rock is rapidly colonized. I'm not talking about preventing algae, etc - I am talking about live rock preventing fish disease - as compared to dry rock. Whats the rationale behind you're theory. Thanks?

 

[MnFish1]

in lieu of making a new thread this page here will be for 2021 updates


The Most Important Fundamental Change in 2021 Cycling rules for the hobby is the preparation for Fish Disease


you can see from the myriad 2020 examples logged a cycle is as good as done when you wet the tank, after a brief time delay we can exactly calculate before you set up the tank and so can every single reef tank entrant that has ever existed in a reefing convention.


Read this forum, and tell me if reefs under 8 mos old aren't in dire need of preps for fish disease. **the concern in cycling is no longer ammonia and nitrite, its quick disease wipeouts from skipping preps

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

so what are the ideal preps>

post some that are better, and better measured with feedback, than from that link above and we'll consider them. Can't be a thread about someone's single reef, needs to be a forum of pages using other's reefs and their unbiased feedback. under those constraints i expect zero alternate examples to be linked. its ok to insert solely examples of one person's reef who skipped preps and has no disease, I know that's all we can find lol.


my self-appointed job here is to relay reefing microbiology trends to you six years before they're formally adopted. if we dont get on fish disease now the entire world is going to hate our hobby.


(get a pico reef, gain the ability to never have to fallow and quaratine because you keep corals and inverts only, there's ways around these unfavorable preps )

Oh - by the way. Here are my preps for disease:

1. Purchase healthy fish from a known source.
2. Shipping fish is stressful and that alone can bring out disease - My personal opinion - I don't buy from the internet.
3. Feed your fish well, a balanced healthy diet - whether pellets, flakes, frozen, live or a combination.
4. Do not overstock - which can lead to transient ammonia levels that might damage gills/skin enough to cause less resistance to disease.
5. Overstocking also leads to more surface area on which parasites can live and multiply - so see # 4.
6. Try to observe the fish you buy - at the store, etc. Before purchase. If they look at all sick, thin, etc. Avoid purchasing them.
7. Do not buy fish from a store using hypo salinity or low-dose copper in their tanks. first there is likely to be a stress from the salinity change and second copper therapy is not necessarily good 'long-term'.
8. Try to purchase all of your fish from the same source as compared to multiple vendors.
9. If you want to quarantine - go ahead. I personally do not prophylactically treat for disease - and I try to do my observation 'in the store' before bringing the fish home.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for that summary that beats reading a link and trying to compile those high points, 100% appreciated


your tone is always so spot on when doing helpful summaries of our five pages of work, too. Nice contributions overall I might add, to the new discoveries about cycling being relayed.

I did not know #7 great info


an example of today's cycling trends:

Having to start all over, velvet killed my fish

So, I’m new to the hobby and started with a 45 gallon tank. I’ve had to running for about 5 months and my fish got velvet, at the beginning I didn’t understand what I was looking at, and was a little too late to treatment. Although it was only two fish that had it before I started treatment...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you so so much for that summary that beats reading a link and trying to compile those high points, 100% appreciated


I did not know #7 great info

Thanks - Brandon - of course those were just 'my opinion'. But - I was serious - when asking - on what basis would you assume that dead rock will not support a reef tank? Or that Live rock, compared to dead rock will prevent/help disease? The reason I ask is there is another thread where a poster - who has a 'dry rock tank' - is basically wanting to give up on keeping fish because he has no live rock and is having problems keeping fish.

 

[brandon429]

I like to make recommends off what Jay has posted for options in the disease forum.

He doesnt spend much time talking about white rocks vs true live rocks but the medically-isolating and treating aspect is the focus and that seems best for both extremes of rock maturity in new tanks because the steps are so ordered.

Paul's non qt method is heavily centered on system maturity and suppression of disease components by both fish health (from much better feeding than the average reefer does) and by system assists, a known benefit of keeping the rocks in place for decades to reach a steady-state. that method also has a large portion of artistry req'd to reproduce, and the medical step-by-step of qt and fallow is very scripted and easier to apply, for sure it has setbacks too. fish die in quarantine, admitted.


Still I wont change recommends until Jay does regarding the sticky options he wants folks to read first click in the disease forum.

we absolutely must do something preemptively however to stem these initial losses, the pattern is clear and standout. The most important aspect of cycling today is disease preps, the biofilter is a done deal when water and already charted # of days are in the mix.


*we arent able to use matured rock from any source while skipping disease preps from the disease forum, this is why I think the aged vs dry claim is very nuanced, very hard to repeat.

where I'd claim live rock has a direct statistical advantage over dry is preventing massive dino wipeouts in tanks.

 

[brandon429]

A bump to install data relayed to me by seneye practitioner NeonRabbit221B


He has provided info that moves up the logged start date for the unassisted marine cycle to 30 days. His seneye shows 100% dry/inert materials merely sitting in circulated saltwater for 30 days as able to pass a nominal degree of ammonia added, on digital seneye so we can at least see some accuracy and consistency compared to color compare kits.

The completely unassisted, and free, marine cycle is not written about in any book or article and its never been delineated in the hobby I've seen, other than a common cycling chart. Neons findings are directly in line that within 30 days or less, ammonia can be assumed to have established basic self control

cycling charts never asked what we fed, or if we hit 2 ppm

or what bac was dosed, they solve on a time axis

and all charts have the same time axis, book to book or link to link.





A large degree of unneeded bottle bac sales are to unsuspecting customers who truly don't know simply waiting a month is the same thing. we have literally been trained to doubt a free cycle, and buy reinforcements.


for reference here's the 60 day unassisted cycle proof prior to Neon's work, See MSteven1 here, excellent job.

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

A bump to install data relayed to me by seneye practitioner NeonRabbit221B


He has provided info that moves up the logged start date for the unassisted marine cycle to 30 days. His seneye shows 100% dry/inert materials merely sitting in circulated saltwater for 30 days as able to pass a nominal degree of ammonia added, on digital seneye so we can at least see some accuracy and consistency compared to color compare kits.

The completely unassisted, and free, marine cycle is not written about in any book or article and its never been delineated in the hobby I've seen, other than a common cycling chart. Neons findings are directly in line that within 30 days or less, ammonia can be assumed to have established basic self control

cycling charts never asked what we fed, or if we hit 2 ppm

or what bac was dosed, they solve on a time axis

and all charts have the same time axis, book to book or link to link.





A large degree of unneeded bottle bac sales are to unsuspecting customers who truly don't know simply waiting a month is the same thing. we have literally been trained to doubt a free cycle, and buy reinforcements.


for reference here's the 60 day unassisted cycle proof prior to Neon's work, See MSteven1 here, excellent job.

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

I don't see any information relating to that when I click the link. I also cant see 'Neon's work'? For some reason?

But - my question would be 'what is the nominal amount of ammonia that was reduced?' 'Since the goal of cycling is to be able to add fish - did he take the experiment to the next step and add fish/etc? if so - what? and did the ammonia rise again?' My guess is that though 'ammonia was under control', that tank would not support the same bio load that a tank cycled in a more fed (i.e. ammonia, fish, shrimp, etc) state would handle.

I would also suggest that bottled bacteria is not expensive. And - many people (myself included) - do not want to waste a month waiting for a tank sitting with water, pumps, heaters, etc functioning paying the electric bill, etc not to mention paying for a seneye - or multiple varieties of other testing, the time, etc as compared to adding bottled bacteria and fish according to instructions. But thats just me.

My guess (again its a guess) - is that if you took completely sterile rock, a completely sterile tank, sterile equipment, (i.e. new) and did this experiment, that the results might be different. In other words it would have to be replicated in multiple tanks, scenarios to suggest that 'the paradigm has shifted somehow'. But - if you could direct me (directly) to the methods he used - and the actual results - that would be wonderful

 

[brandon429]

the reason we can't assume that is because you can't find a single link where after waiting, a new tank lost its fish. we'd be more accurate to assume it could carry fish, MSteven's post was a very strong degree of ammonia reduction. I didnt get the final details from Neon as he's still working up his data, but it falls in line with never doubting water bacteria to do things we want in water, so I've no reason to assume anything here is a weak cycle.

I relayed his initial findings here, excited to release the updates on the new measures.

there aren't any examples online of a partially-able cycle


there's cycled, can carry intended starting bioload


and not cycled, ie how two clowns in a paint bucket dry reef fare if no bottle bac is used in the test.

no mid ground has ever been documented in reefing. 2 ppm is not required to prove a cycle at all. any degree of ammonia movement is how we've based our thousands of logged works + inspectable outcome patterns.

you should make such a test and post your findings. MStevens work is clearly shown in api proofs above on the exact page linked. Neon hasn’t made his final summation yet.

The reason I dont immediately suspect a weak cycle vs an obvious built-up cycle (fritz + ammonia feeding + 3 weeks wait would constitute a solid known cycle) is because on the entire internet we can't find a single example of a weak or half able cycle. if there were ten out there, I'd default to concern

he met the time from a cycling chart, when it says tanks are ready was an additional reinforcement.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I don't see any information relating to that when I click the link. I also cant see 'Neon's work'? For some reason?

But - my question would be 'what is the nominal amount of ammonia that was reduced?' 'Since the goal of cycling is to be able to add fish - did he take the experiment to the next step and add fish/etc? if so - what? and did the ammonia rise again?' My guess is that though 'ammonia was under control', that tank would not support the same bio load that a tank cycled in a more fed (i.e. ammonia, fish, shrimp, etc) state would handle.

I would also suggest that bottled bacteria is not expensive. And - many people (myself included) - do not want to waste a month waiting for a tank sitting with water, pumps, heaters, etc functioning paying the electric bill, etc not to mention paying for a seneye - or multiple varieties of other testing, the time, etc as compared to adding bottled bacteria and fish according to instructions. But thats just me.

My guess (again its a guess) - is that if you took completely sterile rock, a completely sterile tank, sterile equipment, (i.e. new) and did this experiment, that the results might be different. In other words it would have to be replicated in multiple tanks, scenarios to suggest that 'the paradigm has shifted somehow'. But - if you could direct me (directly) to the methods he used - and the actual results - that would be wonderful

I guess I can chime in here because its me.

So experiment started on 6/20. I used sterile rock (2 lb per gallon), SW is a well cleaned bucket and added .5 ppm ammonia which equated to .048 ppm free ammonia. On 6/22 it has dropped to .007 and was redosed with another 1 ppm. I did some trimming of values (not sure if the .007 was correct based on test kits/free ammonia calculator) but essentially I was sitting at .1 ppm of free ammonia after the redose. As of today its back down to .017. Did some checking with test kits a few days ago and nitrites have also dropped which to me is a promising sign.

No plans for fish as this is in a 5 gallon bucket. I would say within a week it could process .5 ppm daily which is close to the amount of ammonia from feeding for a 40 gallon tank. I will try and find the post or make a thread about this experiment and other I plan on doing. I wouldn't go as far as saying that my bucket could handle a "full bio load" but rather in 30 days I wouldn't hesitate in adding a fish or two in a sterile fishless cycled tank without bacteria.

Edit: Screwed my dates up lol fixed though.

 

[brandon429]

I am literally shocked it could process ammonia within a week, and on a cycling chart the ammonia does not take a full month anyway that was for nitrite compliance. Thank you for your work and updates

average time to ammonia control, natural inclusions only, from a standard chart is ten days or so.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I think the first drop in ammonia might have been a trimming error/misread as it wouldn't make sense that it could drop down in 2 days. After doing the trimming it seems to line up with the test kit.

 

[MnFish1]

I guess I can chime in here because its me.

So experiment started on 6/20. I used sterile rock (2 lb per gallon), SW is a well cleaned bucket and added .5 ppm ammonia which equated to .048 ppm free ammonia. On 6/22 it has dropped to .007 and was redosed with another 1 ppm. I did some trimming of values (not sure if the .007 was correct based on test kits/free ammonia calculator) but essentially I was sitting at .1 ppm of free ammonia after the redose. As of today its back down to .017. Did some checking with test kits a few days ago and nitrites have also dropped which to me is a promising sign.

No plans for fish as this is in a 5 gallon bucket. I would say within a week it could process .5 ppm daily which is close to the amount of ammonia from feeding for a 40 gallon tank. I will try and find the post or make a thread about this experiment and other I plan on doing. I wouldn't go as far as saying that my bucket could handle a "full bio load" but rather in 30 days I wouldn't hesitate in adding a fish or two in a sterile fishless cycled tank without bacteria.

Edit: Screwed my dates up lol fixed though.

Right - so you added ammonia - that was the key - Everyone 'knows' that if you add shrimp, fish, ammonia, etc - the a tank will cycle over a month. So - the impression @brandon429 gave was that you just took a tank, with sterile everything - and then it was cycled - which was not the case. (Note - I'm not criticizing you) - Just clarifying what I was saying.

In other words - your results confirm long-standing 'wisdom' - that many people did in the past (before it became defined as 'cruel') - i.e. take a tank, saltwater, add some rock (dry) or coral (dry) - and gradually add fish. These tanks always 'cycled'. The only difference between your method - and the 'old way' was that you dosed ammonia at the start.

 

[MnFish1]

PS it is my long-standing (and current belief) - that the amount of nitrifying bacteria will grow until there is no more ammonia - at which point they will go into a dormant state. (note I'm talking about obligatory autotrophs - that require ammonia as energy). For example - I believe that @NeonRabbit221B could indeed at a clown fish to his 5 gallon bucket. I do not think he could add a pair of 5 inch tangs to that bucket (notwithstanding the size).

 

[brandon429]

Again I’ll ask, post the example link


you said everyone knows a tank will self cycle in a month, show me one time thats ever been written for the hobby or spoken by a cycling ump. They’re all purchased based teachings. No buy, no cycle is how all training is provided. Neon has provided the first linkable statement for it that I’ve ever seen in reefing of it happening this fast unassisted


cycle chart writers left kind of a mystery…we didn’t know if freshwater and sw held the same completion times and we didn’t know if we had to tussle with salinity, temp, phosphate or alk to get there. Looks like we don’t so far off cursory feedback

 

[brandon429]

Beneficial Bacteria in the Water Column?

I am trying to explain to someone that there is very little beneficial bacteria in the water column and using old tank water will not assist the cycling process to any significant degree-rather unsuccessfully. Does anyone have any decent explanation, links that would explain this? This article...

www.reef2reef.com

I wanted that thread linked with our newest cycle findings thread because Randy is commenting in it and because discussing suspended vs adhered bacterial action is so 2021.


When readers who are studying cycling options want to know if reef water has useful filter bacteria in it, that link directly contrasts with youtube videos that say reef water does not have cycling bacteria in it. Due to that conflict, its perfect for our study. we can watch the thread evolve over time. offer your own findings.

I think its fair to say the #1 thing a cycler wants to know, is when they can ethically carry the waste generated by the animals planned, and begin. they want a simple start date where nobody flames them.

we think that date for waste carry is predictable for all reefs, before assembly, all the time, well enough you can bank a convention on it. and then repeat annually for 36 years.

but the date you can ethically add fish is regulated by your chosen disease prevention protocol, which now is more important to cycling than actually caring about ammonia and nitrite. you can see from all examples they'll self-regulate, in any ol' common approach.

a reef tank cycle isn't something you coax into start or finish, its something we can't find a single example for having failed to complete in a very consistent manner, tank to tank.

 

[MnFish1]

you said everyone knows a tank will self cycle in a month, show me one time thats ever been written for the hobby or spoken by a cycling ump. They’re all purchased based teachings. No buy, no cycle is how all training is provided. Neon has provided the first linkable statement for it that I’ve ever seen in reefing of it happening this fast unassisted

Brandon - I don't need to 'post a link'. There are numerous methods that have shown (over decades) that you can take an aquarium, add a piece of rock and add a clownfish and it cycles without adding bacteria. In this case @NeonRabbit221B added .5 ppm ammonia - Thus the tank cycled. I will repeat it again - I do not think this is an example of a 'self-cycle'.

But here is a quote from an article (note there are 3 options Option 1is with 'fish alone', Option 3 is with a bacteria starter. Option 2 (quoted) - is basically the same method NeonRabbit used - and it says it takes 3-6 weeks:

"

Option 2: Without Fish​

To start the process, you will need to add an ammonia source such as fish food or a chunk of shrimp. As the fish food or shrimp decomposes, it will create ammonia. Alternatively, pure ammonia, which does not contain any perfumes or detergents or surfactants, can be added. As a general rule of thumb, we recommend 5 drops for every 10 gallons of tank water. Once you start to detect nitrites, reduce this to 3 drops a day.
Timeline: At least 3 weeks and likely up to 6 weeks
Benefits: Inexpensive. Drawbacks: Takes time"

By the way Option 3 using bacteria starter states "timeline: as soon as 24 hours"

How to Cycle a Saltwater Aquarium - Simplicity Aquatics

Before adding any livestock to a new tank, you must cycle a saltwater aquarium to ensure a safe environment for all fish and corals.

www.simplicityaquatics.com

 

[brandon429]

New Subsection,

Using Ocean water to cycle> dynamics of implantation and suspended raft vectoring of filter bacteria into aquariums.


Team, obtain some ocean water and look at it under high magnification with lower underlight

would you say that's a lot of dots, or not many.
its many, its a thousand per drop that you can see


the ones you can't see increase exponentially, we have established that sea water is a million rafts that suspend midwater.


You know how in studies on filter bac you read that they rarely swim freely in water, but stay attached?

is it possible within the scope of the universe that these countable dots in seawater contain millions of filter bacteria, better than a ten dollar bottle of X brand cycling bac attached and that they transfer into your tank, land in crevices, then reproduce off the degradation of those rafts

(meaning you don't have to add ammonia to an ocean water cycle, its not indicated, it brings in ammonia as proteins in the water not yet liberated plus your home environment is going to feed it trace ammonia as well, see unassisted reef tank cycle rules)

As we sub divide and discuss cycles there have been a few seawater cycling posts lately out in the forum and this type of cycling is again different from shrimp-rot cycling, or bringing home KP aquatics rock and preventing ammonia buildup, but adding no bac considering you just paid for bac rock, or reef convention skip cycles. This type of waterborne free cycle relies on your vectored raft bacteria, they aren't going to die if you don't feed them.


by rule ocean water is just live rock redistributed/less mass more hydration its still a stewing mix of life and attachable substrate. as microplanktors die and rot, that's bac food. as suspended pods die, same, these are food packets avail for long term starvation periods.



cycles handle things fine without us, given merely time and common exposure, that's why we can't find examples of actually failed cycles online amid the stated API stalls, bacteria function fine even if we withhold things.

By the time filter bacteria take to transfer into your tank from seawater (rely on ten days, like a cycling chart shows for ammonia control estab) there will be natural feed systems in place... the very same feed systems that make unassisted cycling possible will keep your ocean water setup alive. give the added water ten+ days to deposit, then add fish and post pics here.


The ten day ammonia drop line off a cycling chart keeps presenting as a recurring theme in my posts

Anyone who owns a benchemarked, trimmed seneye benched on a running reef to be in nh3 spec can expect to see a functioning safe biofilter for a common couple fish and cuc and a few corals after day ten of an oceanwater cycle. Report here any findings on the matter you can measure, we value the input as a referee for claims.

*caveat, some fish stores specifically pre filter the rafts out, that's longer cycling time for purer water. I'm talking from the ocean into your tank, that's a free cycle no need to add bottle bac just give it shy of two weeks and then use the aquarium.

for any seneye testers out there the specific application claim here is that after ten days of stewing in common seawater from a beach, in a system of common reef rocks and sand packed in like we do, you can do a 100% water change and add back synthetic saltwater and test it for .5 ppm ammonia oxidation on a benchmarked seneye, proven accurate seneye on a display reef, and the system will handle the ammonia. the surfaces will be cycled and the seneye will show ammonia control, further validating the ammonia line from any common cycling chart. We are doing a half a ppm vs 2 because this isn't bottle bac concentration, and that level of command will run any common starting bioload in reefing when amplified by the degree of surface area reef tanks use.

Even if few people own a seneye now and all the critiques are made by non seneye users, one day that will shift. In 2026 we'll have nearly all digital ammonia nh3 data plus claims logged here for inspection


I can't wait.

 

[brandon429]

In direct support of the review above we need to re-pin the unassisted cycle option, the unfed, no bottle bac dosed, merely rocks in circulating water a few months cycle option.

this options uses slow but natural and consistent inputs to cycle your reef. for example, what does the top of your ceiling fans look like every new season, clean or dirty


you didn't just scoop up lint (carbon vectors by associations and catchment) and pour it on top of the fan

it vectored there, suspended in air currents like the rafts above were suspended and rode in on seawater

all that and skin cells (more carbon) pet dander (more carbon upon breakdown)

This post gets the usual harsh online redirection attempt, to the point of near total distraction, but I'm linking this proof here because it endures unreasonable scrutiny any way. MSteven1 has simply produced the cleanest and best-tested unassisted cycle post I've ever seen. Its being linked in my updated cycling science thread because its a valid proof of the free, unassisted cycle and the basic completion time that follows such an attempt.

To see the dynamics of unassisted cycling read from page 97 forward, see MSteven1's test pics, posts and updates.

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

**this is why we don't have to feed the Ocean water cycle, by the time ten + days has elapsed your home reef is starting to take on mass like the top of a ceiling fan blade and that's not the only means of input either. all the messing with the tank you do transfers bacteria off your arms into the system that bloom and die and become part of CNP feed cycles, these tanks slowly self feed unless you build one in the middle of a positive pressure operating room.

As you can see above, anyone online can debate anything (harshly) if they have the urge, but if its just one person vs the several practiced biologists in that thread that too means something in pattern.

This thread and any proof I link here are arranged together because this reflects the science I use in aquarium cycling threads that result in happy aquarists.

-we cycle safely- and by factoring disease over ammonia control, we'll save more fish from total wasting and repurchase impulses trained into us

we choose the right option for the job vs a blanket cycle approach: rot shrimp spike to 2pmm and wait thirty days.



Anyone who owns a benchmarked and proven seneye is welcome to fact check our cycling timeframes, please do.

Until we get a seneye set of data that contradicts timeframes listed, we're going with the timeframes listed in this thread.

 

[MnFish1]

In direct support of the review above we need to re-pin the unassisted cycle option, the unfed, no bottle bac dosed, merely rocks in circulating water a few months cycle option.

this options uses slow but natural and consistent inputs to cycle your reef. for example, what does the top of your ceiling fans look like every new season, clean or dirty


you didn't just scoop up lint (carbon vectors by associations and catchment) and pour it on top of the fan

it vectored there, suspended in air currents like the rafts above were suspended and rode in on seawater

all that and skin cells (more carbon) pet dander (more carbon upon breakdown)

This post gets the usual harsh online redirection attempt, to the point of near total distraction, but I'm linking this proof here because it endures unreasonable scrutiny any way. MSteven1 has simply produced the cleanest and best-tested unassisted cycle post I've ever seen. Its being linked in my updated cycling science thread because its a valid proof of the free, unassisted cycle and the basic completion time that follows such an attempt.

To see the dynamics of unassisted cycling read from page 97 forward, see MSteven1's test pics, posts and updates.

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

**this is why we don't have to feed the Ocean water cycle, by the time ten + days has elapsed your home reef is starting to take on mass like the top of a ceiling fan blade and that's not the only means of input either. all the messing with the tank you do transfers bacteria off your arms into the system that bloom and die and become part of CNP feed cycles, these tanks slowly self feed unless you build one in the middle of a positive pressure operating room.

As you can see above, anyone online can debate anything (harshly) if they have the urge, but if its just one person vs the several practiced biologists in that thread that too means something in pattern.

This thread and any proof I link here are arranged together because this reflects the science I use in aquarium cycling threads that have no fails, no initial kills.

we cycle safely

we choose the right option for the job vs a blanket cycle approach: rot shrimp spike to 2pmm and wait thirty days.

My post here is a review of the specific options we use in hundreds of linkable work threads, that's the only form of critique we want to see: counter work threads. The standard of proof we use in this forum is personal practice logged, work threads that give us patterns we can double check for claims made.

Anyone who owns a benchmarked and proven seneye is welcome to fact check our cycling timeframes, please do.

Until we get a seneye set of data that contradicts timeframes listed, we're going with the timeframes listed in this thread.

There is also no need to waste thousands of dollars on coral frags. By one Zoa, One nub of acropora, a dime sized anemone, a head of hammer coral that easily fits on a frag plug. Take a 200 gallon aquarium and in 15 years you will have a reef tank. Its kind of the same argument. @Lasse has said that nitrifying bacteria can grow on particulate matter from sea water. It makes sense.

Thus, it all comes down to 'why'? Which is easier for the average person - going and getting buckets of seawater from a non-polluted area, drive it back to your house, etc - then wait months for a cycle. OR - buying a bottle of Fritz 9000 and adding fish and rock the next day? With no threads or proof, I'll categorically state that what you're saying above is going to work the vast majority (if not all) of the time. But I would take the bottle of Fritz 9000 every time.

 

[brandon429]

I disagree that after seawater you wait months. a timeframe was stated above, and a seneye proofing was accepted for counter claims.

MN, you and I can't chat for a while I expressly ask you not to post in my threads until you and I reach a different tune of communication long in the future


You can still do the interruptions in continuance, but as a fellow peer I'm asking you to specifically not to post on my threads, select the ignore button. Your writing here is beyond unacceptable and as the author of this thread I'm asking you not to post in it, though you still can anyway, but I'm asking you not to derail or post here further.

In other threads, feel free to type critique all day long but not here. You should indeed try and shoot down anything I type as we meet in other's posts, just not here. This thread reflects on my own practices, write your mode down in a clear post and we can consider it much further down the road.


If you asked it of me I'd honor it 100%.


Anyone with a benchmarked and tuned seneye, please post all findings and measures for any subset of cycling discussed on this thread.

If any reader has some links of cycled tanks they produced and it factors into an area of discussion on this thread, post those work links they're the acceptable form of contest on this thread.