Updated Cycling Science thread 2020
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OP
OP
It is impossible for a 6+ month old reef tank to suffer from uncontrolled ammonia. Cannot occur.
www.reef2reef.com
that’s updated cycling science at work.
new cycling science: his first description sentence gives every clue we use in this thread to close the matter. My first sentence conveyed what we have here, not a shred of doubt.
and the pictures line up with new cycling science prediction
old cycling science: your bacteria are dying you’ve really messed up. Better buy something. You kit says .25, so you have uncontrolled ammonia and by extension, dead bacteria. How your tank looked for most of this year with living animals eating, acting normally doesn’t factor, solely the api and it says .25 and that’s what you have.
we are about to end 2020
I bet 2021 cycling notions don’t change much until an author or sage writes about these updates and reviews the tiny possibility it’s time for new reflection about what bacteria do on massive wet surface area in high flow after being fed then inoculated then waited out for chart timing.
Critique claims into oblivion, make another cycle analysis thread using live examples as we do, compare outcomes— write something so we can be different in cycling than we were in years before, the years where everyone has ranging cycle times just not reef convention sellers.
any author who writes reef books or articles or blogs or podcasts or paperbacks or digital print: scrutinize / analyze / verify updated cycling science vs old cycling science so we can have some streamlining, pls.
If we are still here in 2025 trying to disprove nine straight months of .25 I’m going to be very disappointed, in the authors who give us reef procedures.
We had no trouble updating medical science from the 1600’s, stuck .25 ammonia is today’s version of reef miasma. nitrite will never be factored in any cycle we run here.
Happy new microbiology year team!
b
High ammonia
I have a 26 gal bow front with about a 10 gal sump one clown fish a few snails (2 turbos and 3 nassarius) a Pom Pom Xenia and a hammer coral the tank has been running since March first fish in July coral in aug. I only feed a tiny pinch of micro pellets twice a day only enough that can be eaten...
www.reef2reef.com
that’s updated cycling science at work.
new cycling science: his first description sentence gives every clue we use in this thread to close the matter. My first sentence conveyed what we have here, not a shred of doubt.
and the pictures line up with new cycling science prediction
old cycling science: your bacteria are dying you’ve really messed up. Better buy something. You kit says .25, so you have uncontrolled ammonia and by extension, dead bacteria. How your tank looked for most of this year with living animals eating, acting normally doesn’t factor, solely the api and it says .25 and that’s what you have.
we are about to end 2020
I bet 2021 cycling notions don’t change much until an author or sage writes about these updates and reviews the tiny possibility it’s time for new reflection about what bacteria do on massive wet surface area in high flow after being fed then inoculated then waited out for chart timing.
Critique claims into oblivion, make another cycle analysis thread using live examples as we do, compare outcomes— write something so we can be different in cycling than we were in years before, the years where everyone has ranging cycle times just not reef convention sellers.
any author who writes reef books or articles or blogs or podcasts or paperbacks or digital print: scrutinize / analyze / verify updated cycling science vs old cycling science so we can have some streamlining, pls.
If we are still here in 2025 trying to disprove nine straight months of .25 I’m going to be very disappointed, in the authors who give us reef procedures.
We had no trouble updating medical science from the 1600’s, stuck .25 ammonia is today’s version of reef miasma. nitrite will never be factored in any cycle we run here.
Happy new microbiology year team!
b
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OP
OP
The lead manager of a waste water treatment plant, that’s who I want to interview and gain commentary from...someone not in the reef tank hobby, a neutral party who still deals daily in nh3 control. A surface area evaluator by profession and decades
wastewater treatment plants don’t use api to run the multi million dollar facility, so they have a different take than we do
i think I’d consider paypal-ing such an individual for an interview, anyone have relatives willing to roll a q and a
wastewater treatment plants don’t use api to run the multi million dollar facility, so they have a different take than we do
i think I’d consider paypal-ing such an individual for an interview, anyone have relatives willing to roll a q and a
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wonroc
Well-Known Member
can i get a condensed summary? like a short paragraph.
heck i dont even own a test kit. i used a bottle bac, added fish a few days later and you can see my tank today.
the only measurements i take is salinity and temp.20% water change a week.done
Ya most will say my tanks a bomb waiting to go off, but i have crystal water and coraline after 5 months. my plate also gave birth and i have new heads on everything . it is possible to overthink things.
heck i dont even own a test kit. i used a bottle bac, added fish a few days later and you can see my tank today.
the only measurements i take is salinity and temp.20% water change a week.done
Ya most will say my tanks a bomb waiting to go off, but i have crystal water and coraline after 5 months. my plate also gave birth and i have new heads on everything . it is possible to overthink things.
OP
OP
It sounds like api never factored in your process, so there was no alarm in the fish-only approach taken
Or maybe you ran an ammonia test and it passed, that’s a rarity
the alarm sounds when the old standby .25 or .5 is the ammonia reading, and then a test from ro water shows zero, and they feel the cycle is stuck. Non reef water has no conversion going on so it usually blanks cleanly, just not the tank itself, which is over reported
Highlights from a formal scientific paper on coral disease from NOAA
can we find snippets of updated cycling science in this published paper? What does the nitrite portion say
Or maybe you ran an ammonia test and it passed, that’s a rarity
the alarm sounds when the old standby .25 or .5 is the ammonia reading, and then a test from ro water shows zero, and they feel the cycle is stuck. Non reef water has no conversion going on so it usually blanks cleanly, just not the tank itself, which is over reported
Highlights from a formal scientific paper on coral disease from NOAA
can we find snippets of updated cycling science in this published paper? What does the nitrite portion say
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You, sir, have been added to my very selective, highly curated, Safari bookmark folder. 
OP
OP
Ever wonder how long the new reef cycling rules have been in development
I have a post somewhere from 2005 saying .25 stuck ammonia is impossible, searching
dos and donts of cycling? - Reef Central Online Community
dos and donts of cycling? New to the Hobby
www.reefcentral.com
I have a post somewhere from 2005 saying .25 stuck ammonia is impossible, searching
OP
OP
When you are reading forum posts team, watch out for these misinformation red flags, maybe link us to them for challenge and evolution of claims:
1. removing sandbeds in sections is safer than instant removal. false. The remaining live rock is either enough to run the bioload or its not, slow removal didn't add more bacteria to the rock just because forum posters say so daily. your rocks have the same amount of bacteria on them that the surface area and water shear allows, its not even controlled by your bioload as so commonly claimed (secondary falsehood the hobby promotes)
this is why people who fallowed for 80 days can add all the fish back without a new cycle, because the bacteria didn't dwindle in their absence. When you see posters advising each other that bacteria on rocks adjust their levels based on number of fish, or feed we offered or withheld, that's false it does not work that way. That's humans interjecting themselves as a sole source of feed for life forms able to find feed without us for millennia. The notions we have been given coincidentally cause us to make retail purchases, but we can get off that loop using updated cycling science.
2. Reef tank water has no bacteria, its only on the surfaces.
false
reef tank water has lots of bacteria in it that you can use for cycling other reefs, we do this commonly and it takes 20 days for inert surfaces to pick up enough water-borne bacteria to be cycled, its on file. When you read online that reef tank water doesn't have the bacteria, its the surfaces, that's incorrect. they both have bacteria.
The youtube video that says reef water has no cycling bac is wrong, even though that came from MACNA lol, and so is anyone online typing out that statement. We already have fully cycled tanks on file bringing up all dry systems to full ability in 20 days... ammonia oxidation proven in the thread. Tufffloud's connecting two reefs thread is the most recent.
3. Moving live rocks among aquariums causes a new cycle, false.
this is how all MACNA conventions are ran. have you ever shown up to an aquarium convention and seen a ten thousand dollar skip cycle reef being taken down, owner's holding head in shame, neon lights turned off and employee rolling up the electrical cord, being taken down to go home because they failed to cycle> has that ever happened in all of reefing? do we just pack up and leave because api says nitrite is there, or ammonia? When you see live rock systems that were simple transfers showing extended ammonia, you are seeing a condition that cannot occur in reefing and if it did, 10% of macna entrants would have a fail rate.
mailed uncured ocean rocks might cycle a while, but not aquarium-moved ones. when they set up macna reefs, its all cured rock or they're doing dry starts with bottle bac to sell legit cycling bottle bac.
They have a zero percent fail rate for thirty years, because what ammonia does is never unpredictable its predictable without a test kit ALWAYS
ONLY forum cyclers struggle with ammonia and nitrite, convention sellers do NOT do that ever.
all you need is a cycling chart, the time axis and from that you can coordinate the params regarding a cycle, and then when you move those rocks elsewhere nothing resets. just because api disagrees does not mean a thing, it means literally nothing.
**why does any of this matter in reefing, who cares if some old rules are off base**
because it affects how you move reefs. it controls whether corals you've had for ten years live or die in the transfer. accurate cycling science helps you formulate fish disease care programs that have high retention rates. accurate cycling science saves you money vs wasting it. Would you prefer to have a Dr. who runs your medical diagnostics and procedure with hesitation and constant second-guessing, or deliberate action, which is more likely to keep you alive? Deliberate. Knowing. already tested, that's what keeps reefs alive vs guessing, hesitation, and purchase.
forum cycles are hesitant, second guessing, dependent.
new cycling science has already called the outcome based on the first sentence or two of a cycle description and has no fails on file, and that can keep your reef alive longer than just winging it because we are using truths in what bacteria do, to our benefit.
1. removing sandbeds in sections is safer than instant removal. false. The remaining live rock is either enough to run the bioload or its not, slow removal didn't add more bacteria to the rock just because forum posters say so daily. your rocks have the same amount of bacteria on them that the surface area and water shear allows, its not even controlled by your bioload as so commonly claimed (secondary falsehood the hobby promotes)
this is why people who fallowed for 80 days can add all the fish back without a new cycle, because the bacteria didn't dwindle in their absence. When you see posters advising each other that bacteria on rocks adjust their levels based on number of fish, or feed we offered or withheld, that's false it does not work that way. That's humans interjecting themselves as a sole source of feed for life forms able to find feed without us for millennia. The notions we have been given coincidentally cause us to make retail purchases, but we can get off that loop using updated cycling science.
2. Reef tank water has no bacteria, its only on the surfaces.
false
reef tank water has lots of bacteria in it that you can use for cycling other reefs, we do this commonly and it takes 20 days for inert surfaces to pick up enough water-borne bacteria to be cycled, its on file. When you read online that reef tank water doesn't have the bacteria, its the surfaces, that's incorrect. they both have bacteria.
The youtube video that says reef water has no cycling bac is wrong, even though that came from MACNA lol, and so is anyone online typing out that statement. We already have fully cycled tanks on file bringing up all dry systems to full ability in 20 days... ammonia oxidation proven in the thread. Tufffloud's connecting two reefs thread is the most recent.
3. Moving live rocks among aquariums causes a new cycle, false.
this is how all MACNA conventions are ran. have you ever shown up to an aquarium convention and seen a ten thousand dollar skip cycle reef being taken down, owner's holding head in shame, neon lights turned off and employee rolling up the electrical cord, being taken down to go home because they failed to cycle> has that ever happened in all of reefing? do we just pack up and leave because api says nitrite is there, or ammonia? When you see live rock systems that were simple transfers showing extended ammonia, you are seeing a condition that cannot occur in reefing and if it did, 10% of macna entrants would have a fail rate.
mailed uncured ocean rocks might cycle a while, but not aquarium-moved ones. when they set up macna reefs, its all cured rock or they're doing dry starts with bottle bac to sell legit cycling bottle bac.
They have a zero percent fail rate for thirty years, because what ammonia does is never unpredictable its predictable without a test kit ALWAYS
ONLY forum cyclers struggle with ammonia and nitrite, convention sellers do NOT do that ever.
all you need is a cycling chart, the time axis and from that you can coordinate the params regarding a cycle, and then when you move those rocks elsewhere nothing resets. just because api disagrees does not mean a thing, it means literally nothing.
**why does any of this matter in reefing, who cares if some old rules are off base**
because it affects how you move reefs. it controls whether corals you've had for ten years live or die in the transfer. accurate cycling science helps you formulate fish disease care programs that have high retention rates. accurate cycling science saves you money vs wasting it. Would you prefer to have a Dr. who runs your medical diagnostics and procedure with hesitation and constant second-guessing, or deliberate action, which is more likely to keep you alive? Deliberate. Knowing. already tested, that's what keeps reefs alive vs guessing, hesitation, and purchase.
forum cycles are hesitant, second guessing, dependent.
new cycling science has already called the outcome based on the first sentence or two of a cycle description and has no fails on file, and that can keep your reef alive longer than just winging it because we are using truths in what bacteria do, to our benefit.
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OP
OP
Help cycling tank
Hello I have a 13.5 gal saltwater tank with Live rock and live sand I used 2 oz of dr Tim’s one and only and I put 4 drops per gal 54 drops of dr Tim’s ammonium chloride my ammonia is reading 8.0 ppm and my nitrite is reading 0.5 I think I might have messed up by adding 4 drops per gal of tank...
www.reef2reef.com
we don’t know if he’s got live or dry rocks, tbd.
relation to our thread here: 100% of the advisors in the thread do not adhere to updated cycling rules or they’d ask if this was actually live rock, from point #3 in post #49
recall that old cycle rules applies raw ammonia to everything. They accept all testing as valid, depending on the post title.
live rocks and dry rocks and totally uncured ocean rocks are given no distinction, they add ammonia and bottle bac to all of them
because that’s what the sellers have trained us to do, not their fault. Bottle bac was falsely sold there, if indeed it’s skip cycle live rock.
i like to show the gradient we work against to get new info out
constant doubt in forums plays an important role. Snake oil filters. lets see if we can convince them patiently using work examples.
OP
OP
It is impossible to correctly advise anyone on their cycle status without discerning if the rocks are total skip cycle rocks. Hallmark rule of updated cycling science.
true cured live rocks: simply relocated from pet store to home, or home to MACNA, or neighbor to neighbor, or living room to bed room —- all the same. Skips cycle. add nothing, zero wait time for start. runs all reef conventions
totally dry rocks, painted fake live rocks: do the ammonia and a pinch of feed for carbon (Dr Reefs boosting trick) and bottled bacteria for cycling
uncured ocean rocks mailed to you from the ocean: for Pete’s sake don’t add ammonia, what good is bottle bac you just paid for the best bacteria in reefing. Squelch ammonia production from dieoff by water changes and prime, scraping off organisms in decay, keep ammonia out of the cascade here.
Three different types of rocks, three different types of cycles.
anyone who accurately troubleshoots cycle issues matches the type of rock to the procedure.
true cured live rocks: simply relocated from pet store to home, or home to MACNA, or neighbor to neighbor, or living room to bed room —- all the same. Skips cycle. add nothing, zero wait time for start. runs all reef conventions
totally dry rocks, painted fake live rocks: do the ammonia and a pinch of feed for carbon (Dr Reefs boosting trick) and bottled bacteria for cycling
uncured ocean rocks mailed to you from the ocean: for Pete’s sake don’t add ammonia, what good is bottle bac you just paid for the best bacteria in reefing. Squelch ammonia production from dieoff by water changes and prime, scraping off organisms in decay, keep ammonia out of the cascade here.
Three different types of rocks, three different types of cycles.
anyone who accurately troubleshoots cycle issues matches the type of rock to the procedure.
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OP
OP
A fascinating duality exists in cycling threads, we can see this right now in the new tanks forum at work.
* Context of the thread title controls our assessment advice. If someone posts .25 ammonia in a day one tank we agree its right, after all the tank is one day old.
if someone posts it in an old tank, with corals and snails and post cycle rock, we instantly claim its wrong and that api is known to overreport.
www.reef2reef.com
see the duality in testing, these meters are either right or they're not.
they aren't any more accurate in cycling than they are in post-cycle assessment.
we tend to alter our rules about what bacteria do based on the thread title.
* Context of the thread title controls our assessment advice. If someone posts .25 ammonia in a day one tank we agree its right, after all the tank is one day old.
if someone posts it in an old tank, with corals and snails and post cycle rock, we instantly claim its wrong and that api is known to overreport.
New to reefing-ammonia test results
Hi, I am new to this whole thing. I have a biocube 32 with the intank filtration system. I feel as if my ammonia is constantly at .25 or just below even after a 5 gallon water change. It is not 0, but not quite at .25 either. I have attached some photos. Hopefully the lighting makes it look as...
www.reef2reef.com
see the duality in testing, these meters are either right or they're not.
they aren't any more accurate in cycling than they are in post-cycle assessment.
we tend to alter our rules about what bacteria do based on the thread title.
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Well he clearly states in his first sentence, live rock and live sand. The problem here is how live is it, or at all.Help cycling tank
Hello I have a 13.5 gal saltwater tank with Live rock and live sand I used 2 oz of dr Tim’s one and only and I put 4 drops per gal 54 drops of dr Tim’s ammonium chloride my ammonia is reading 8.0 ppm and my nitrite is reading 0.5 I think I might have messed up by adding 4 drops per gal of tank...
we don’t know if he’s got live or dry rocks, tbd.
relation to our thread here: 100% of the advisors in the thread do not adhere to updated cycling rules or they’d ask if this was actually live rock, from point #3 in post #49
recall that old cycle rules applies raw ammonia to everything. They accept all testing as valid, depending on the post title.
live rocks and dry rocks and totally uncured ocean rocks are given no distinction, they add ammonia and bottle bac to all of them
because that’s what the sellers have trained us to do, not their fault. Bottle bac was falsely sold there, if indeed it’s skip cycle live rock.
i like to show the gradient we work against to get new info out
constant doubt in forums plays an important role. Snake oil filters. lets see if we can convince them patiently using work examples.
OP
OP
agreed fully. they sometimes buy that painted / dry caribsea by that moniker
but they wont gimme pics or respond about attached benthic life forms because among today's cycling options, there is no skip cycle so why even entertain the assessment questionnaire
the troubleshooting crowd certainly isn't providing stellar support lol but our position here is up-and-coming, so it needs total scrutiny agreed.
skip cycling literally seems insane until it hits one day, then bam/get it:
saves money
reefs intently
loses nothing
never tricked into buying things
always in control of ammonia, never in doubt, doesn't even own the kit.
can effectively change tanks or homes without distress or loss
can look at a reef virtually or in person and see if its cycled, no testing required.
any reef you design does rock and roll
every fearful aspect of reefing reverses, for the better, when we really see what's going on with true surface area dynamics + accurate microbiology.
but they wont gimme pics or respond about attached benthic life forms because among today's cycling options, there is no skip cycle so why even entertain the assessment questionnaire
the troubleshooting crowd certainly isn't providing stellar support lol but our position here is up-and-coming, so it needs total scrutiny agreed.
skip cycling literally seems insane until it hits one day, then bam/get it:
saves money
reefs intently
loses nothing
never tricked into buying things
always in control of ammonia, never in doubt, doesn't even own the kit.
can effectively change tanks or homes without distress or loss
can look at a reef virtually or in person and see if its cycled, no testing required.
any reef you design does rock and roll
every fearful aspect of reefing reverses, for the better, when we really see what's going on with true surface area dynamics + accurate microbiology.
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OP
OP
EMERGENCY - Crazy Ammonia spike
@Randy Holmes-Farley tanks act normal during nh3 noncontrol issues? when zero sources for input have been discerned, we still headed right towards believing anything the test kit says. Bottle bac was over sold here 3x over. Suddenly the resident bacteria crashed here, with no cause, and killed...
www.reef2reef.com
In dire need of updated cycling science
not the Op
the respondents
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OP
OP
times where a running reef claims nh3 noncontrol, and for some reason the crowd decides the test kits aren’t reliable are shown below.
*now go to any reef board you want, new tanks forum, see any ammonia post, and thats a group of referees agreeing the test kits are now correct and reliable, their cycle is stuck for sure.
not using objective evaluation is old school cycling science
people who troubleshoot cycles online alter their views on test kit accuracy around personal experience and the title of a thread— surface area mechanics are rarely factored in the assessment process, and that works out really well for bottle bac sellers.
*now go to any reef board you want, new tanks forum, see any ammonia post, and thats a group of referees agreeing the test kits are now correct and reliable, their cycle is stuck for sure.
not using objective evaluation is old school cycling science
people who troubleshoot cycles online alter their views on test kit accuracy around personal experience and the title of a thread— surface area mechanics are rarely factored in the assessment process, and that works out really well for bottle bac sellers.
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LauriesaurusRex
New Member
Thanks for all of the good information. I’ve read the articles you linked to, just want to confirm my understanding.
We introduced Dr. Tim’s ammonia and Fritz Turbo Start 7 days ago. Ammonia has been at zero since yesterday, Nitrites are at or over 1 on the Red Sea Test kit, and Nitrates are at or over 50 on the Red Sea test kit. We called the store we purchased the Turbo Start from, and they recommended adding another bottle of bacteria because the ammonia-eating bacteria might have out-competed the nitrate/nitrite-eating bacteria during the shipping process if the bottle got too warm. He did not charge us for the 2nd bottle (love our LFS!)
Since our ammonia is at zero, we can add fish, because nitrite and nitrate are not as toxic to saltwater fish as to freshwater?
We introduced Dr. Tim’s ammonia and Fritz Turbo Start 7 days ago. Ammonia has been at zero since yesterday, Nitrites are at or over 1 on the Red Sea Test kit, and Nitrates are at or over 50 on the Red Sea test kit. We called the store we purchased the Turbo Start from, and they recommended adding another bottle of bacteria because the ammonia-eating bacteria might have out-competed the nitrate/nitrite-eating bacteria during the shipping process if the bottle got too warm. He did not charge us for the 2nd bottle (love our LFS!)
Since our ammonia is at zero, we can add fish, because nitrite and nitrate are not as toxic to saltwater fish as to freshwater?
OP
OP
That is 100% agreeable
As long as rocks and sand are in the tank as attachment points all this time
fritz alone is instant cycling bacteria, meaning even if we added fish day one like so many thousands do, they still don’t die for lack of ammonia control
in addition, you are approaching day ten of any cycling chart, those tell us when bacteria set up shop, the ammonia goes down on or before that date especially when we’ve boosted known sources for filter bacteria
and you’ve specifically seen ammonia go down within the known range of the bottle bac.
the bacteria are plated on surfaces and immune to a 100% water change, Dr Reef found fritz able to handle this in a day or two max, after addition.
you are cycled by every marker we use, please update us! The living animals are the final say.
if your tank is in the least uncycled, it’ll go cloudy in two hours from the new fish and the whole thing will be dead by tomorrow. That’s not happened in any link here, or even one from the whole site.
no more bottle bac is due here. The initial sale was plenty and valid at that point.
As long as rocks and sand are in the tank as attachment points all this time
fritz alone is instant cycling bacteria, meaning even if we added fish day one like so many thousands do, they still don’t die for lack of ammonia control
in addition, you are approaching day ten of any cycling chart, those tell us when bacteria set up shop, the ammonia goes down on or before that date especially when we’ve boosted known sources for filter bacteria
and you’ve specifically seen ammonia go down within the known range of the bottle bac.
the bacteria are plated on surfaces and immune to a 100% water change, Dr Reef found fritz able to handle this in a day or two max, after addition.
you are cycled by every marker we use, please update us! The living animals are the final say.
if your tank is in the least uncycled, it’ll go cloudy in two hours from the new fish and the whole thing will be dead by tomorrow. That’s not happened in any link here, or even one from the whole site.
no more bottle bac is due here. The initial sale was plenty and valid at that point.
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