Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[jda]

^ this is as close as you get to a "like" from Dr. RHF. You should put this on you resume.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

^ this is as close as you get to a "like" from Dr. RHF. You should put this on you resume.

It’s true that I generally do not do likes because I didn’t want to set up a situation where folks might take offense if I didn’t like something (by mistake, because I actually didn’t especially like it, or just didn’t read it).

 

[piranhaman00]

Has UWC come out since the threads on this?

 

[MnFish1]

Wow! You just can’t stop throwing stones.

“Probably flawed”?

If you cannot line up objections about the experiment so we can evaluate the validity of your criticism, why don’t you keep these sort of nasty comments to yourself. As I have advised you before, if you don’t understand the science, ask questions. Let’s debate the science.

Yes - you cant reconcile the algaecide and the bacterial experiments. The NMR is conclusive - I don't know why @sixty_reefer used the argument he did - the NMR data is clear. But - as he pointed out - there is a contradiction - the only rationale is that the bacterial experiments had some kind of methodology error. This is not stone throwing lol. Its totally agreeing with the original proposition - that the NMR data - are the be all and end all. SO - lets use logic - because the bacteriologic rationale that @sixty_reefer used is sound. EITHER - you assume - the bacteriologic experiments are flawed - OR - you assume that the NMR results are flawed. Take your pick - I said - the NMR experiments SUGGEST that this ship has sailed - and that the questions he was asking were becasue the bacteriologic experiments were flawed - or - the opposite.

 

[MnFish1]

For the record - I agree with @sixty_reefer that the bacterialogical experiments show inconsistencies. For the record - I agree that the NMR results (assuming proper collection, etc) - far overweigh his objections. lol You guys seem to want to trip over yourselves to defend (as I said before) a ship thats sailed - barring some response from UWC - I'm not the enemy - but - this thread is actually a little weird - IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

Wow! You just can’t stop throwing stones.

“Probably flawed”?

If you cannot line up objections about the experiment so we can evaluate the validity of your criticism, why don’t you keep these sort of nasty comments to yourself. As I have advised you before, if you don’t understand the science, ask questions. Let’s debate the science.

BTW - just to be clear - its either one or the other - Either

1. The NMR results are correct (most likely)
2. The bacteriologic results that Sixty_reefer was questioning are flawed - or perhaps his interpretation is flawed.

Thats it - this is another tempest in a teapot - but - both 1 - and 2 - above cannot be true - if the bacteriologic results are 'correct' - which are non-standardized - etc are more than likely to be incorrect I.e. - The changes that Sixty_reefer noted are not 'correct'. Instead the NMR that everyone else seems to accept as fact are in fact 'true'. It does not change the underlying concept that Vibrant contains an algaecide. I think (will say it again Dan - so you can get it) - the concept the Vibrant contains some kind of algaecide (QUAT) - based on the testing seems clear-cut - absent an explanation from the company.

The inconsistencies seen in the bacteria studies - likely relate to methods used - as compared to proving that there is bacteria in vibrant.

But - whats funny dan - when a poster - whom I believe is from Europe - who has posted research he has done on this site - on a different topic - is basically called a 'shill' for UWC - I don't see any criticism. To me its not appropriate. So you can own your own lack of action in this as well. You - and some others - SEEM to have an agenda. OK great - that happens in science all the time - but lets not pretend that its not there. I folded my hands on the issue of whether vibrant has an algaecide or not weeks ago (I believe the experiments done) - But - when its just tolerated on a thread - to call an innocent person asking a question - basically a 'shill' for UWC - thats the discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

Wow! You just can’t stop throwing stones.

“Probably flawed”?

If you cannot line up objections about the experiment so we can evaluate the validity of your criticism, why don’t you keep these sort of nasty comments to yourself. As I have advised you before, if you don’t understand the science, ask questions. Let’s debate the science.

BTW - I'm going to directly respond to this - you take a paragraph - and quote 2 words.

Probably flawed - referred to the bacteriological experiments done by Taricha - that Sixty questioned. It does not at all refer to the NMR experiments. So lets make sure you're quoting that is meant. Perhaps I did not type my position clearly. So I'll re-state it:

1. The NMR testing seems conclusive.
2. The bacteriological testing - is likely flawed in some manner.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Has UWC come out since the threads on this

total silence from what I gather as a thread lurker on this.

 

[polyppal]

The Vibrant Saga continues!

 

[sixty_reefer]

But - whats funny dan - when a poster - whom I believe is from Europe - who has posted research he has done on this site - on a different topic - is basically called a 'shill' for UWC - I don't see any criticism. To me its not appropriate. So you can own your own lack of action in this as well. You - and some others - SEEM to have an agenda. OK great - that happens in science all the time - but lets not pretend that its not there. I folded my hands on the issue of whether vibrant has an algaecide or not weeks ago (I believe the experiments done) - But - when its just tolerated on a thread - to call an innocent person asking a question - basically a 'shill' for UWC - thats the discussion.

I don’t mind the grief, as long as they are sure that they’re research is correct, if I ever was going to do something like this I would run all the test at list 3 times and repeat it once more just to be sure that there is no chance for errors before i would dream of making it public.
We are not debating if live rock is better than dry rock.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Has UWC come out since the threads on this?

The main UWC account has not been on Reef2Reef since March.

 

[jda]

Some of you just don't seem to get this... taricha was right. He gets to write the history as the winner, and a clear winner at that. Everything else is dumb without your own experiments or work - go to work and keep your judgement to yourself... the dude more than let you know how to do most of this if you think that it is flawed and can do it better. This might be the only place on the planet where people are allowed to just go on and on about these type of things and we all have to be nice still.

Ask a question or two after you READ THE WHOLE THREAD. The curiosity is good. The judgement is stupid. There is a difference and if somebody thinks that nobody wanting to hear your judgement is type of silencing or censorship, then that person needs to get smarter. It is especially terrible doing it without knowing all that went on.

I once thought that if I had a time machine, I would go back in time and play the lotto. I think that I might also use it go back to a time where people were excoriated for playing armchair judger with no skin the game. I am not even an old man with people on my lawn, but stuff was better when people were not emboldened to think that their opinions always mattered... or could not tell curiosity from judgement.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Some of you just don't seem to get this... taricha was right. He gets to write the history as the winner, and a clear winner at that. Everything else is dumb without your own experiments or work - go to work and keep your judgement to yourself... the dude more than let you know how to do most of this if you think that it is flawed and can do it better. This might be the only place on the planet where people are allowed to just go on and on about these type of things and we all have to be nice still.

Ask a question or two after you READ THE WHOLE THREAD. The curiosity is good. The judgement is stupid. There is a difference and if somebody thinks that nobody wanting to hear your judgement is type of silencing or censorship, then that person needs to get smarter. It is especially terrible doing it without knowing all that went on.

I once thought that if I had a time machine, I would go back in time and play the lotto. I think that I might also use it go back to a time where people were excoriated for playing armchair judger with no skin the game. I am not even an old man with people on my lawn, but stuff was better when people were not emboldened to think that their opinions always mattered... or could not tell curiosity from judgement.

Some of you just don't seem to get this... taricha was right. He gets to write the history as the winner, and a clear winner at that. Everything else is dumb without your own experiments or work - go to work and keep your judgement to yourself... the dude more than let you know how to do most of this if you think that it is flawed and can do it better. This might be the only place on the planet where people are allowed to just go on and on about these type of things and we all have to be nice still.

Ask a question or two after you READ THE WHOLE THREAD. The curiosity is good. The judgement is stupid. There is a difference and if somebody thinks that nobody wanting to hear your judgement is type of silencing or censorship, then that person needs to get smarter. It is especially terrible doing it without knowing all that went on.

I once thought that if I had a time machine, I would go back in time and play the lotto. I think that I might also use it go back to a time where people were excoriated for playing armchair judger with no skin the game. I am not even an old man with people on my lawn, but stuff was better when people were not emboldened to think that their opinions always mattered... or could not tell curiosity from judgement.

You are using a ftir for busan 77 from a alibaba Advert as a reference of evidence. And you expect questions not to be raised?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes - you cant reconcile the algaecide and the bacterial experiments. The NMR is conclusive - I don't know why @sixty_reefer used the argument he did - the NMR data is clear. But - as he pointed out - there is a contradiction - the only rationale is that the bacterial experiments had some kind of methodology error. This is not stone throwing lol. Its totally agreeing with the original proposition - that the NMR data - are the be all and end all. SO - lets use logic - because the bacteriologic rationale that @sixty_reefer used is sound. EITHER - you assume - the bacteriologic experiments are flawed - OR - you assume that the NMR results are flawed. Take your pick - I said - the NMR experiments SUGGEST that this ship has sailed - and that the questions he was asking were becasue the bacteriologic experiments were flawed - or - the opposite.

I'm not aware of any contradictory data, and while it is certainly possible that the bacterial experiments somehow were contaminated by bacteria on the equipment, I do not see how there is any evidence that such is the case, or any reason to think there must be flaws. No one is claiming that the vibrant polymer is or must be sterile. Why would it be?

What exactly do you believe is the contradiction?

 

[shwareefer]

Has UWC come out since the threads on this?

They haven't even felt a gram of pressure to re-word their product page. That's how a seasoned con artist does it.

https://www.uwcmn.com/vibrant-liquid-aquarium-cleaner

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are using a ftir for busan 77 from a alibaba Advert as a reference of evidence. And you expect questions not to be raised?

Post #1: taricha compares the FTIR that the had professionally done, matching Algaefix and Vibrant.

JDA then repeated the experiment and matched the IR of his Vibrant sample to the taricha IR's.

All three are the same. No need to invoke any other IR's to make the case of identity.

 

[Sean Clark]

They haven't even felt a gram of pressure to re-word their product page. That's how a seasoned con artist does it.

https://www.uwcmn.com/vibrant-liquid-aquarium-cleaner

Doing so would imply guilt. Remember UWC is the victim in all of this.

 

[jda]

You are using a ftir for busan 77 from a alibaba Advert as a reference of evidence. And you expect questions not to be raised?

First, the questions should/would not have been if raised you took the time to read everything. It was all followed up with solid proof that would have answered your questions.

Second, curiosity is fine and welcome. The judgement was not appropriate and should not have happened. I also laid this out in my post (that you quoted twice) which either was not understood or also not read. Either way... another miss with a less than 100% engagement.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Post #1: taricha compares the FTIR that the had professionally done, matching Algaefix and Vibrant.

JDA then repeated the experiment and matched the IR of his Vibrant sample to the taricha IR's.

All three are the same. No need to invoke any other IR's to make the case of identity.

I don’t see a match on the ftir could you explain to me how it matches?

 

[CoralB]

Wow !!! Just let me know when the checks are cut and in the mail please !!!