Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[rtparty]

That's the thing. I would never use Algaefix in an Acropora dominate system. If I had then I would more than likely change my rock out.

I prefer to not change out all of my established rock with tons of Acros if I don't really need to. What I want to know is if it is known to stay bound and could come out in the future. Probably hard to tell though given this is probably new to the field.

If it helps, my new tank is using about 20-25 pounds of rock that came from a tank very heavily dosed with Vibrant years ago.

These rocks have been covered in water for over 5 years now. They were the first to get hair algae in the new system. They also have SPS on them already. Knock on wood but I haven't lost a single coral in my transfer. I'm actually seeing growth on multiple SPS already. I credit the halides for that

BTW the ignore button is fantastic

 

[JCOLE]

If it helps, my new tank is using about 20-25 pounds of rock that came from a tank very heavily dosed with Vibrant years ago.

These rocks have been covered in water for over 5 years now. They were the first to get hair algae in the new system. They also have SPS on them already. Knock on wood but I haven't lost a single coral in my transfer. I'm actually seeing growth on multiple SPS already. I credit the halides for that

Awesome! Thank you for the real world experience. I too have halides going over the new system so that is promising.

 

[A Young Reefer]

Can anyone provide details about the NMR test?

 

[MnFish1]

Do you understand common logic? I am asking if anyone knows from "experience" that this could potentially release anything in the FUTURE.

Nothing I am asking is about right now. It's not about if my tank is ok now. It's about could disrupting the rock work when making the switch cause something to leach out. If you don't have the answer or logical data to prove what your saying then do not respond back to me please. You're just wasting both of our time.

No one could possibly know that. IMHO - Thats the answer - and its logical. You just dont seem to want to hear the answer - The TRUTH is - if your corals/fish - NOW are showing no signs of problems - why worry about it? The answer - there is no reason to worry IMHO.

 

[MnFish1]

Awesome! Thank you for the real world experience. I too have halides going over the new system so that is promising.

I gave you my real world experience earlier in the thread - I used it - I had problems - I would never use it again - I didnt on some whim decide to throw all my rocks away lol.

 

[JCOLE]

No one could possibly know that. IMHO - Thats the answer - and its logical. You just dont seem to want to hear the answer - The TRUTH is - if your corals/fish - NOW are showing no signs of problems - why worry about it? The answer - there is no reason to worry IMHO.

LOL! I do want to hear the answer. That's why I posted and tagged a couple on this thread that I respect their opinions/suggestions.

I would like the answers I get to have real world experience begind them or scientific data explaining the answer. What I don't want is someone's opinion on what they "think" is the answer or could happen. Someone with a degree should be able to comprehend this basic logic.

 

[MnFish1]

LOL! I do want to hear the answer. That's why I posted and tagged a couple on this thread that I respect their opinions/suggestions.

I would like the answers I get to have real world experience begind them or scientific data explaining the answer. What I don't want is someone's opinion on what they "think" is the answer or could happen. Someone with a degree should be able to comprehend this basic logic.

I have real world experience with vibrant - I've posted it multiple times - - in freshwater it worked well. in a reef tank - like you I experienced rapid die off of SPS - Since then (3 years ago) - I have put in multiple corals - with no issue - there you go - thats what you wanted. Right?

 

[JCOLE]

I gave you my real world experience earlier in the thread - I used it - I had problems - I would never use it again - I didnt on some whim decide to throw all my rocks away lol.

Congratulations! Isn't it obvious over the last 8 months that I don't really care for your "opinion". That's all you have are opinions. I have seen really no data or logical reasoning behind your posts with Vibrant. You are quick to discredit everyone else but have no science backing your Vibrant "theories".

Again, I tagged the ones that actually have proved themselves when it comes to this. You on the other hand....well you have a degree so I guess that counts.

 

[MnFish1]

Congratulations! Isn't it obvious over the last 8 months that I don't really care for your "opinion". That's all you have are opinions. I have seen really no data or logical reasoning behind your posts with Vibrant. You are quick to discredit everyone else but have no science backing your Vibrant "theories".

Again, I tagged the ones that actually have proved themselves when it comes to this. You on the other hand....well you have a degree so I guess that counts.

I recommend you use the PM function if you dont want a general comment. I think thats why its there And PS - on the dark screen it doesnt show up Weill whom you tagged - so I'm sorry for giving you my experience.

 

[taricha]

That is interesting....do we understand how it is binding to stuff?

Thanks Dan. Is there anything that has been proven on the lifespan of these Polyquats in saltwater?

The EPA assumes their end fate in nature is the sediment. I assume once adsorbed the poly quats are no longer active or toxic. But that is mostly freshwater data. have observed in saltwater that Vibrant binds only to algae or aragonite sand exposed to light, but not glass, plastic, clean aragonite surfaces or aragonite surfaces covered with a bacteria biofilm.

To echo Dan, there is abundant data about the binding (usually irreversibly) to surfaces - cells, plastic, glass, sediment - in freshwater. Very little data about saltwater (because the anticipated uses don't involve release to marine natural waters).
It looks like to both Dan and I that the binding to surfaces from the saltwater is a less complete and rapid process than described in freshwater. It doesn't seem to just latch on to all surfaces rapidly as the freshwater studies find.

My issue now is I am contemplating starting this system completely from scratch with all dry rock, etc. The reasoning is I don't know the long term effects of what is in Vibrant and if whatever is in there can and will bind to rocks, etc for a long time or permanently. If I go this route then I will put all rocks and corals in my existing sump/frag tank while I set my new system up and then frag the Acros from the rocks when the time comes to put them in the new system.

If you mostly wanted to not ever think about it again, you could just get new rock.
If you scrubbed and acid bathed any rocks you wanted to reuse, and changed all the water, I can't see how any significant amount of the polymer could remain.

I am wondering if there is an experiment that could tells us whether adsorbed Vibrant is or is not a problem for you?

I thought about trying to find evidence of the polyquat bound to sand or biofilm. I tried a couple of things that both were busts. no good ideas there.

 

[JCOLE]

I recommend you use the PM function if you dont want a general comment. I think thats why its there And PS - on the dark screen it doesnt show up Weill whom you tagged - so I'm sorry for giving you my experience.

Ah don't play victim now. Your first response was not meant to be helpful and you did not give me your experience until later on. It was condensending and made to try to make me feel stupid for posting it. You can try and back track now but just like the other 1000's of posts you have made, everyone can see right through it.

 

[youcallmenny1]

I have a smaller thread that I've had going regarding the longer-term effects of Vibrant on refugium macro growth. I can totally understand your concern @JCOLE because this stuff seems to stick around for a long, long time. Months after stopping dosing, I've witnessed my old thriving macro slowly die away, replaced it with new chaeto and dragon's breath and then the new macro just sits there. It doesn't die but it doesn't grow. Some others in there have transplanted their own affected macro in to a different system and it's resumed normal growth. I'm trying to catch up on this thread and polyquats to maybe glean helpful information on how to speed along this purge. I'd really like my fuge back.

 

[MnFish1]

Ah don't play victim now. Your first response was not meant to be helpful and you did not give me your experience until later on. It was condensending and made to try to make me feel stupid for posting it. You can try and back track now but just like the other 1000's of posts you have made, everyone can see right through it.

what I said originally as a conclusion:

BTW - I know this sounds sarcastic - but - its actually true - if your fish/corals/etc - are having no problems - besides the consideration that you want a new tank - why?

 

[JCOLE]

To echo Dan, there is abundant data about the binding (usually irreversibly) to surfaces - cells, plastic, glass, sediment - in freshwater. Very little data about saltwater (because the anticipated uses don't involve release to marine natural waters).
It looks like to both Dan and I that the binding to surfaces from the saltwater is a less complete and rapid process than described in freshwater. It doesn't seem to just latch on to all surfaces rapidly as the freshwater studies find.


If you mostly wanted to not ever think about it again, you could just get new rock.
If you scrubbed and acid bathed any rocks you wanted to reuse, and changed all the water, I can't see how any significant amount of the polymer could remain.


I thought about trying to find evidence of the polyquat bound to sand or biofilm. I tried a couple of things that both were busts. no good ideas there.

Thank you! I will PM you. I have an idea and want to see if I can run something on my end.

 

[JCOLE]

what I said originally as a conclusion:

Thank you for regurgitating that info. I know what you originally posted. Again, that's not experience. It is just your opinion and again, I don't really care for it.

 

[A Young Reefer]

Are you two done hijacking a thread for your own personal problems with each other?
I really am benefiting from this thread and the last thing I want is this thread getting shut down like the last one for no reason.
You can use the PM option as @MnFish1 stated and both of you can take your personal problems there. Otherwise leave this thread alone.
Thank you and happy reefing.

 

[JCOLE]

Are you two done hijacking a thread for your own personal problems with each other?
I really am benefiting from this thread and the last thing I want is this thread getting shut down like the last one for no reason.
You can use the PM option as @MnFish1 stated and both of you can take your personal problems there. Otherwise leave this thread alone.
Thank you and happy reefing.

You're right. I tried to contribute to the thread with a question that I assume a lot want to know the answer to. I couldn't contain myself once the riffraff chimed in. Just my nature.

 

[Dan_P]

I have a smaller thread that I've had going regarding the longer-term effects of Vibrant on refugium macro growth. I can totally understand your concern @JCOLE because this stuff seems to stick around for a long, long time. Months after stopping dosing, I've witnessed my old thriving macro slowly die away, replaced it with new chaeto and dragon's breath and then the new macro just sits there. It doesn't die but it doesn't grow. Some others in there have transplanted their own affected macro in to a different system and it's resumed normal growth. I'm trying to catch up on this thread and polyquats to maybe glean helpful information on how to speed along this purge. I'd really like my fuge back.

The observation that might explain this is both sand exposed to light and Ulva have a limit to the amount of Vibrant they adsorb. The leap in logic from this laboratory experiment to the saltwater aquarium is that an aquarium might have a limit as well. When the limit is reached, Vibrant begins to accumulate and reach high concentrations that cause problems or harms fresh balls of Chaetomorpha. If you did not know about the possible build and persistence of Vibrant after dosing was stopped, the new Chaetomorpha not growing would seem weird. I am in the process of trying to stall Chaetomorpha growth but not kill it to see if it recovers and whether it can contaminate other Chaetomrpha.

 

[gt4profession]

I suddenly lost a couple of Urchins (pincushion) and a Sea Hare while using Vibrant but still don't know if it was the cause. I was dosing IAW the manufacturer's directions.

It’s weird because I was using vibrant and a few days later I noticed my sea urchins were moving far less. I also noticed spines all over the bottom of my tank. I did a large water change and a few days later the sea urchins seemed better.

 

[Dan_P]

Are you two done hijacking a thread for your own personal problems with each other?
I really am benefiting from this thread and the last thing I want is this thread getting shut down like the last one for no reason.
You can use the PM option as @MnFish1 stated and both of you can take your personal problems there. Otherwise leave this thread alone.
Thank you and happy reefing.

No one is hijacking the thread. There is a recurring problem with one participant on this thread who aggravates the other participants. I PM’ed this person offline about this behavior but to no avail. Apparently, everyone else is the problem.