Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[MnFish1]

Just so its clear - In January - I recommended that R2R start a new Forum for posting research. That forum as a matter of fact - in the list is directly below the chemistry forum we're in now. Here is my initial post in that forum. So - anyone pretending that I have some kind of personal agenda against science or any particular person here is plain wrong. Someone wanted a thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/information-about-forum.886713/

 

[GARRIGA]

Any update since March 29th on manufacture responding?

 

[Dan_P]

Sorry - the posts are out of order - Here is my 'scientific response'. You can't say one way or the other. Because - of course - whether vibrant sticks to something cannot be 'independent of algaecide concentration'. Lets say there are xx receptor sites on everything in the tank for an algaecide. Then you add 100x those receptor sites, then decrease to 50 then decrease to 25 then decrease to 10x - you cannot say - wow - since there was no difference - there is no independence between concentration and 'stickiness'. Instead, you would need IMHO - to decrease the concentration instead - and move upward - until you reached the level (in that specific environment) - when the algaecide stops sticking. IMHO - you're doing it partly correct - but whether your system has shortcomings (as you mentioned) at the lower levels or not - IMHO you cannot say what youre saying - exactly becasue of those shortcomings. This is not a personal insult - its my opinion.

Again you're using 'your experimental system' - and extrapolating that to the aquarium. I am not sure thats correct. You might disagreee. All good. I can have my opinion.

The data from my experiments were never meant to be extrapolated to the aquarium. That notion is a misrepresentation of the study’s purpose.

The study was just to look for things in the aquarium that reduced the concentration of Vibrant, i.e., answer the question of “what does Vibrant stick to”. The use of various concentrations of Vibrant was to ensure there was no concentration dependence in the method that might lead to a false negative result.

If you don’t understand scientific experimentation or English is not your first language, please ask for clarification.

 

[Dan_P]

I didn't find this particularly hard to follow and wrap my head around. Great work Dan and thanks for scientific explanation Randy.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Dan_P]

Just so its clear - In January - I recommended that R2R start a new Forum for posting research. That forum as a matter of fact - in the list is directly below the chemistry forum we're in now. Here is my initial post in that forum. So - anyone pretending that I have some kind of personal agenda against science or any particular person here is plain wrong. Someone wanted a thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/information-about-forum.886713/

I doubt anyone thinks you are against science.

I would propose that just about everyone observes a person with an almost a complete lack of self awareness of their behavior being counterproductive to promoting scientific discourse and a person unwilling or unable to adjust their behavior accordingly to minimize the damage.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any update since March 29th on manufacture responding?

No update beyond them saying they intended to respond when the "audit" is over.

 

[LRT]

Thanks for the feedback.

No sir thank you. I see the value with your taking the time to do these tests in your lab style/controlled aquarium set up.
To me it sets great base control for the rest of us to play with and work out the variables. It also appears this is how science is actually done in the lab Greatly appreciated man!

 

[jda]

I appreciate anybody who is putting their own blood, sweat and tears into trying to figure anything out that we don't know... anything. Thank you. Even though it is limited to just probably money, effort to chasing things down, making calls or I can get some things tested, let me know if I can help. Otherwise, I will sit back and watch this evolve.

 

[shwareefer]

When I look at the EPA building, it makes me think UWC's "audit" is still sitting in a pile on someone's desk.

 

[JimWelsh]

No update beyond them saying they intended to respond when the "audit" is over.

I think a certain ex-President should be annoyed that they are stealing his shtick.

 

[MnFish1]

I doubt anyone thinks you are against science.

I would propose that just about everyone observes a person with an almost a complete lack of self awareness of their behavior being counterproductive to promoting scientific discourse and a person unwilling or unable to adjust their behavior accordingly to minimize the damage.

Anytime you think my behavior is counterproductive, or completely lacking self-awareness or that I need to 'adjust my behavior' - please feel free to report my posts - just like anyone else. In the mean-time. If I agree with something you say - I'll agree with it. If I want to question it -- I'll question it. If I disagree with it - I will. Politely. If you have a problem with that - Apologetically, thats your problem. I appreciate anyone that works to improve the hobby and especially doing experiments on their own time. I've told you this publicly and privately. Now I've repeated it. Have a good night

 

[MnFish1]

The data from my experiments were never meant to be extrapolated to the aquarium. That notion is a misrepresentation of the study’s purpose.

The study was just to look for things in the aquarium that reduced the concentration of Vibrant, i.e., answer the question of “what does Vibrant stick to”. The use of various concentrations of Vibrant was to ensure there was no concentration dependence in the method that might lead to a false negative result.

If you don’t understand scientific experimentation or English is not your first language, please ask for clarification.

Can you link me to your specific hypothesis/thread/post where that was mentioned. Because - If I misunderstood your English, etc - I'm happy to be corrected.

But I will ask you another question. I understand why you're not using lower concentrations. BUT - do you think the fact that you're using multiples of the dose recommended for any of these products might color your results. The reason I brought this up in the first place - was the number of people afraid that vibrant or other polyquats WERE accumulating in their aquarium and killing coral. I did not see how this testing was designed to show it or not - and now I have my answer - "The data from my experiments were never meant to be extrapolated to the aquarium." I apologize - as an English speaker - I was under the impression that this was an 'aquarium related forum'.

EDIT - Sorry this sounded snarky - at the time I meant it to be - but I reconsidered my phrasing.

 

[GARRIGA]

No update beyond them saying they intended to respond when the "audit" is over.

Reminds me of showing one’s tax records

 

[Dan_P]

I appreciate anybody who is putting their own blood, sweat and tears into trying to figure anything out that we don't know... anything. Thank you. Even though it is limited to just probably money, effort to chasing things down, making calls or I can get some things tested, let me know if I can help. Otherwise, I will sit back and watch this evolve.

Much appreciated.

Currently looking at how Ulva nutrient consumption and growth respond to Vibrant. @taricha Is looking at Caulerpa. Why? We need data from controlled experiments on this algaecide. I am thinking of buying Chaeto and see how it likes Vibrant. I suspect we will have something to say in a week or so.

 

[jda]

If you need some Chaeto, then hollar at me and I can mail you some. I throw away more than a 5 gallon bucket of it every few weeks.

 

[MnFish1]

If you need some Chaeto, then hollar at me and I can mail you some. I throw away more than a 5 gallon bucket of it every few weeks.

His experiments are not designed to be related to reef aquaria. I would be happy to donate algae as well.

 

[Dan_P]

If you need some Chaeto, then hollar at me and I can mail you some. I throw away more than a 5 gallon bucket of it every few weeks.

I will gladly accept your offer and start the experiments as soon as it arrives. I have two empty reactors. I will PM my address.

 

[Garf]

I will gladly accept your offer and start the experiments as soon as it arrives. I have two empty reactors. I will PM my address.

I did an experiment donkeys ago with hair algae (I was a turf scrubber freak), transplanting a healthy hair algae screen and the change in environment screwed its growth. Thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[Dan_P]

I did an experiment donkeys ago with hair algae (I was a turf scrubber freak), transplanting a healthy hair algae screen and the change in environment screwed its growth. Thought it was worth mentioning.

Oh boy, tell me more details, especially the change in environment details, as much as you can remember. I am conducting nutrient consumption studies on mixed algae colonies and your real world example sounds very interesting. Thanks.

Dan

 

[JCOLE]

I will gladly accept your offer and start the experiments as soon as it arrives. I have two empty reactors. I will PM my address.

If you need more in a couple weeks let me know as well. I just cut mine back but it will be back to it's glory in no time. I have plenty of it.