Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[mojo8427]

Right... Key word.. "Spectrum"

Exactly, spectrum. Not "All bacteria" as previously stated. Some Abs goes after aerobic, some anaerobic, gram neg, gram point of sale. So, you didn't know what was being targeted by Vibrant as you didn't know what you were dosing.

Were you dosing a nuke? A firecracker? Did it accumulate or breakdown? Did it affect clams? Because the polyquat in AlgaeFix, the same one in Vibrant is used to kill mussels in water processing plants. Ya just had to trust them.

 

[mojo8427]

So.. has it been proven that there is no bacteria in the bottle?

Taricha centrifuged them and there were bacterial spores in MB7 and all the rest of the bottled bacteria but nothing in the Vibrant nor the AlgaeFix.

 

[a.t.t.r]

I am wondering how UWC will move the goal post this time?

 

[Chrisv.]

If they are willing to lie this much about what is in their products, would you want them as a business partner selling their items?

Honestly, I have used the product and had decent results. If I owned a fish store (or BRS) I would support any product that kept people in the hobby.

If percent markup is equal across the board, then the fish store will make more money selling this than algae fix.

Assuming that the sellers also do not know what's in it, there is no liability there.

Clearly if there are no microbes in this, it's false advertising to sell it as a microbial product. The sin here is claiming that it was something that that it was not. If they simply listed no ingredients they would be within their rights, and users could decide if they wanted to use the black box product or not.

 

[rtparty]

Honestly, I have used the product and had decent results. If I owned a fish store (or BRS) I would support any product that kept people in the hobby.

If percent markup is equal across the board, then the fish store will make more money selling this than algae fix.

Assuming that the sellers also do not know what's in it, there is no liability there.

Clearly if there are no microbes in this, it's false advertising to sell it as a microbial product. The sin here is claiming that it was something that that it was not. If they simply listed no ingredients they would be within their rights, and users could decide if they wanted to use the black box product or not.

Exactly.

I would keep this around as a retailer if the company came out and fessed up to the whole thing. That's highly unlikely though.

I don't think the issue for most of us is what is in Vibrant, but how they marketed it and blatantly lied about the ingredients.

I don't know how you come clean as a company on this but they seem to have decent PR and marketing.

 

[BrianAnthony]

Taricha centrifuged them and there were bacterial spores in MB7 and all the rest of the bottled bacteria but nothing in the Vibrant nor the AlgaeFix.

Ok.. so that would be the basis for a fraudulent claim.

 

[GARRIGA]

Technically, doesn't say bacteria. Specifically says cultured bacteria blend. Therefore, could that mean bacteria was used to bind the algaecide? How they get around the deceptive marketing? Assuming it is deceptive. Saying latter because just like their claims it is all speculative but I’m not a lawyer. I’m sure there’s one amongst us that can hopefully clarify the distinction.

 

[BrianAnthony]

So.. you add vinegar and amino acids in the mixture to appear as a food source for the bacteria and put it in a dark blue bottle to show you are filtering light for the bacteria inside. When there's no bacteria to begin with.. and call it proprietary Nice.

 

[rtparty]

Technically, doesn't say bacteria. Specifically says cultured bacteria blend. Therefore, could that mean bacteria was used to bind the algaecide? How they get around the deceptive marketing? Assuming it is deceptive. Saying latter because just like their claims it is all speculative but I’m not a lawyer. I’m sure there’s one amongst us that can hopefully clarify the distinction.

There is 100% deception when you claim vinegar and aspartic acid but there is none in the bottle.

Also, the polyquat used isn't a cultured bacteria blend in any way (unless I'm misunderstanding something here. Definitely not a chemist or scientist in any way.)

 

[revhtree]

Let’s please be careful with accusations, name calling (liars) and legal talk. We don’t allow any of these things. So please word your responses carefully or they will be edited or removed. It’s right and it also protects you and us. Thank you.

 

[BrianAnthony]

Technically, doesn't say bacteria. Specifically says cultured bacteria blend. Therefore, could that mean bacteria was used to bind the algaecide? How they get around the deceptive marketing? Assuming it is deceptive. Saying latter because just like their claims it is all speculative but I’m not a lawyer. I’m sure there’s one amongst us that can hopefully clarify the distinction.

Technically, doesn't say bacteria. Specifically says cultured bacteria blend. Therefore, could that mean bacteria was used to bind the algaecide? How they get around the deceptive marketing? Assuming it is deceptive. Saying latter because just like their claims it is all speculative but I’m not a lawyer. I’m sure there’s one amongst us that can hopefully clarify the distinction.

The "cultured" word in this case means... grown or propagated in an artificial medium.

 

[GARRIGA]

There is 100% deception when you claim vinegar and aspartic acid but there is none in the bottle.

Also, the polyquat used isn't a cultured bacteria blend in any way (unless I'm misunderstanding something here. Definitely not a chemist or scientist in any way.)

Just pointing out the possibility that the language used is vague enough to cover their butts.

 

[mojo8427]

Just pointing out the possibility that the language used is vague enough to cover their butts.

EPA: "Based on its evaluation of Busan 77, the Agency has determined that Busan 77products, unless labeled and used as specified in this document, would present risks inconsistent with FIFRA. Accordingly, should a registrant fail to implement the risk mitigation measure identified in this document, the Agency may take regulatory action to address the risk concerns from the use of Busan 77. If all changes outlined in this document are incorporated into the product labels, then all current risks for Busan 77 will be substantially mitigated for the purposes of this determination."

I'm not a rocket surgeon but they aren't likely following federal regulations.

 

[GARRIGA]

The "cultured" word in this case means... grown or propagated in an artificial medium.

But how do we know that to be certain? Is there a defined use of that term when it comes to marketing aquarium products? Why I’m cautious to accuse them of false advertising since I’m not aware of any action to prove it happened.

 

[Chrisv.]

EPA: "Based on its evaluation of Busan 77, the Agency has determined that Busan 77products, unless labeled and used as specified in this document, would present risks inconsistent with FIFRA. Accordingly, should a registrant fail to implement the risk mitigation measure identified in this document, the Agency may take regulatory action to address the risk concerns from the use of Busan 77. If all changes outlined in this document are incorporated into the product labels, then all current risks for Busan 77 will be substantially mitigated for the purposes of this determination."

I'm not a rocket surgeon but they aren't likely following federal regulations.

Now THIS is potentially of consequence.

 

[GARRIGA]

EPA: "Based on its evaluation of Busan 77, the Agency has determined that Busan 77products, unless labeled and used as specified in this document, would present risks inconsistent with FIFRA. Accordingly, should a registrant fail to implement the risk mitigation measure identified in this document, the Agency may take regulatory action to address the risk concerns from the use of Busan 77. If all changes outlined in this document are incorporated into the product labels, then all current risks for Busan 77 will be substantially mitigated for the purposes of this determination."

I'm not a rocket surgeon but they aren't likely following federal regulations.

I’m not a chemist. Not a lawyer. Do have a finance background which has taught me to be cautious when assuming or accusing.

Has there been laboratory results to identify this product as containing Busan 77? Not generalizing any discoveries within this thread. Being specific to something that would lead the manufacturer to change the labeling and use?

Like I said. Not a chemist. Not a lawyer. Just a Finance professional who’s learned enough to not overly speculate. Best to work with facts.

 

[GARRIGA]

Let’s please be careful with accusations, name calling (liars) and legal talk. We don’t allow any of these things. So please word your responses carefully or they will be edited or removed. It’s right and it also protects you and us. Thank you.

That’s why I’m trying to slow the flow. Wild accusations not the safest for all involved yet we have a right to test the thesis and each can decide for themselves how to best apply or not apply the knowledge gained. Perhaps with some restrain. Although we all know it’s the internet and latter not the norm.

 

[mojo8427]

Has there been laboratory results to identify this product as containing Busan 77? Not generalizing any discoveries within this thread. Being specific to something that would lead the manufacturer to change the labeling and use?

It's the very first post.

 

[Chrisv.]

That’s why I’m trying to slow the flow. Wild accusations not the safest for all involved yet we have a right to test the thesis and each can decide for themselves how to best apply or not apply the knowledge gained. Perhaps with some restrain. Although we all know it’s the internet and latter not the norm.

I think that the data in this thread is pretty clear. Certainly enough that if someone cared, they could easily initiate a discussion with the EPA. These rules are here for a reason and if they are mislabeling something in a way that violates federal law, that should not continue. People can choose to use or not use the product, but there are clear laws that control labels.

Personally I won't hesitate to use it in the future, but I consider myself to be an environmentalist and I do trust that if the EPA wants something labeled, they have a vested environmental reason to require it.

You may not be a scientist, but the person with the NMR, they are.

 

[GARRIGA]

It's the very first post.

Thought he said he’s not a chemist. I’ll go read again. Thanks