TTM fish dying. Does API Chrloine & Heavy Metal Neutralizer remove ammonia?

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Timeline:

Day 1: new 10 Gallon starting TTM
Day 4: Transferred to new 10g TTM
Day 6: Gave Prazipro for 24 hours before next transfer
Day 7: Transferred to new 10g TTM, ammonia got high, 2-3pm BEFORE transfer. 0 after. He was fine before, but by late night he was laying down. I thought it might just be how Naso Tang sleep
Day 8: Today, he's been laying down all day. I tested ammona it's at .5-1 already.

I have 3.5 inch Naso, 3.75 inch powder brown tang, 4.5 inch Scopus (brown tang)
Feeding very lightly, letting them eat algae off single rock I put into each new TTM from DT (clean of all disease from 76 day fallow)

The other two tangs seem fine. All 3 have been eating algae off rock every day. Only scopus seems to eat pellets. Naso and powder brown only eat algae off rock.

Does API Chlorine & Heavy Metal Neutralizer remove Ammonia or do I need to rush to store to get something else? I think I read somewhere about methalyne blue for ammonia recently? I'll research this, but if anyone has comments let me know. THANK YOU!

 

[Manny’s Reef]

Timeline:

Day 1: new 10 Gallon starting TTM
Day 4: Transferred to new 10g TTM
Day 6: Gave Prazipro for 24 hours before next transfer
Day 7: Transferred to new 10g TTM, ammonia got high, 2-3pm BEFORE transfer. 0 after. He was fine before, but by late night he was laying down. I thought it might just be how Naso Tang sleep
Day 8: Today, he's been laying down all day. I tested ammona it's at .5-1 already.

I have 3.5 inch Naso, 3.75 inch powder brown tang, 4.5 inch Scopus (brown tang)
Feeding very lightly, letting them eat algae off single rock I put into each new TTM from DT (clean of all disease from 76 day fallow)

The other two tangs seem fine. All 3 have been eating algae off rock every day. Only scopus seems to eat pellets. Naso and powder brown only eat algae off rock.

Does API Chlorine & Heavy Metal Neutralizer remove Ammonia or do I need to rush to store to get something else? I think I read somewhere about methalyne blue for ammonia recently? I'll research this, but if anyone has comments let me know. THANK YOU!

That is a tremendous fish load for a 10g uncycled tank. You wont be able to manage your ammonia. I would suggest something more like a 30-40 gallon QT for those three. Alternatively, next time do just one at a time.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

That is a tremendous fish load for a 10g uncycled tank. You wont be able to manage your ammonia. I would suggest something more like a 30-40 gallon QT for those three. Alternatively, next time do just one at a time.

Ya I was worried about this. I did put rock from main tank + water from DT hoping this would help a little bit, but ya apparently not enough. I have some filter media I threw into my refugium recently to incubate to use for this, but I forgot about that. I'll throw that filter media in now. Large chunks of sponge filter. I'll start driving to LFS and grab some ammonia detoxifier unless someone replies here that my API Chlorine & Heavy Metal Neutralizer will help. Don't want to complicate things and add it if it won't help anyways. The water from 300 gallon DT is .5 Nitrates, 0 ammonia, .05 Phosphate, so it's good water.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I did 80% water change and used Ammo Lock by API. He died just now 5 hours later. Sad day. Learning lesson that 10g TTM isn't large enough to quarantine 3 medium/large fish.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I'm sorry for your loss. TTM is said to be harder on fish than other forms of quarantine. Did/do the fish have any parasite that you are trying to eliminate?

I know it doesn't help now, but Fwiw, there is VERY little nitrifying bacteria in the water column so while using tank water won't necessarily hurt anything, it will NOT help cycle the tank/process ammonia.

Ammonia detoxifiers - there is much debate as to whether they actually do anything to make ammonia less harmful to fish, but even if they do (by turning ammonia into less toxic ammonium), it's only temporary and within 24-36 hours any ammonia /ammonium that is still in the tank will become toxic again.

Last thing, and I have recent personal experience with this, be very careful adding any bottled bacteria to water recently treated with an ammonia detoxifier (or visa versa). It can cause a bacterial bloom, low oxygen, etc. My experience was with Prime and Biospira, but I've heard similar issues with other combinations.

Good luck with the other fish!

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I'm sorry for your loss. TTM is said to be harder on fish than other forms of quarantine. Did/do the fish have any parasite that you are trying to eliminate?

I know it doesn't help now, but Fwiw, there is VERY little nitrifying bacteria in the water column so while using tank water won't necessarily hurt anything, it will NOT help cycle the tank/process ammonia.

Ammonia detoxifiers - there is much debate as to whether they actually do anything to make ammonia less harmful to fish, but even if they do (by turning ammonia into less toxic ammonium), it's only temporary and within 24-36 hours any ammonia /ammonium that is still in the tank will become toxic again.

Last thing, and I have recent personal experience with this, be very careful adding any bottled bacteria to water recently treated with an ammonia detoxifier (or visa versa). It can cause a bacterial bloom, low oxygen, etc. My experience was with Prime and Biospira, but I've heard similar issues with other combinations.

Good luck with the other fish!

Thanks for the info. I wonder why TTM would be harder on fish? I'm using identical water each change with identical temperatures. The only thing really fluctuating is ammonia starts 0 each change (because 100% water change), but creeps up to whatever it does depending on the bioload. In my case, .5-.75 first day, 1-1.5 2nd day, and 2-3 3rd day, which was seemingly too high since I lost one. Are there other things that would make it harsh? I thought it was a more safe form of quarantine since you don't use any chemicals (aside from maybe dewormer or ammonia products)

 

[nereefpat]

TTM is great. You just can't do that many big fish in a 10 gallon.

Despite the claims of ammonia removing/neutralizing products, there isn't a mechanism for them working and I'm not convinced they do much in saltwater.

 

[Tamberav]

I agree, not large enough. 30-40g for messy fish like that.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks for the info. I wonder why TTM would be harder on fish? I'm using identical water each change with identical temperatures. The only thing really fluctuating is ammonia starts 0 each change (because 100% water change), but creeps up to whatever it does depending on the bioload. In my case, .5-.75 first day, 1-1.5 2nd day, and 2-3 3rd day, which was seemingly too high since I lost one. Are there other things that would make it harsh? I thought it was a more safe form of quarantine since you don't use any chemicals (aside from maybe dewormer or ammonia products)

I guess I have a different definition of quarantine. To me, quarantine is when you keep new fish in a separate (fully cycled) tank for several weeks to observe for any problems, make sure they are eating well, etc. The separation from the main tank IS the quarantine.

If I'm adding any meds, it's a hospital tank and a whole different set of rules may apply, depending on the meds, what illness is being treated, how sick the fish are, etc.

In my experience, TTM is best used when you know a fish has ich but don't want to use copper; as the protomonts drop off the fish, you're completely replacing that water to remove them (and sterilizing the tank, equipment, etc).

As you've found, having fish in an uncycled tank is difficult to manage. Ammonia building up can damage the gills and cause permanent damage that you might not even see...

I'm not saying TTM isn't a good method, and obviously some have used it with success, but you asked why I thought it can be harder on fish.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

This is a good thread that details differing opinions about TTM as well as its limitations. This is where I got some of the info that helped inform my opinion on the subject.

Thread 'PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/please-stop-using-ttm-its-barbaric.326254/

Again, (despite the title of the thread I linked) I'm not saying you shouldn't use TTM, just answering your question as to why I think it can be harder on fish

 

[Manny’s Reef]

Thanks for the info. I wonder why TTM would be harder on fish? I'm using identical water each change with identical temperatures. The only thing really fluctuating is ammonia starts 0 each change (because 100% water change), but creeps up to whatever it does depending on the bioload. In my case, .5-.75 first day, 1-1.5 2nd day, and 2-3 3rd day, which was seemingly too high since I lost one. Are there other things that would make it harsh? I thought it was a more safe form of quarantine since you don't use any chemicals (aside from maybe dewormer or ammonia products)

I think TTM is a great option. I’ve used it and compared to running copper, I feel that tangs tolerate it better than copper.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I think TTM is a great option. I’ve used it and compared to running copper, I feel that tangs tolerate it better than copper.

I am trying TTM for first time because I lost 3 fish out of 4 to copper quarantine recently. 2 we’re wrasse and I didn’t realize that they were sensitive to copper at the time.

 

[Spare time]

I did 80% water change and used Ammo Lock by API. He died just now 5 hours later. Sad day. Learning lesson that 10g TTM isn't large enough to quarantine 3 medium/large fish.

Plus TTM is likely stressful for the fish. Every time you move them over you are pretty much mimicking a predation event. I strongly discourage TTM for people on here as its less comprehensive for disease coverage and more stressful than copper. Wrasses are fine in copper power/safe btw. If a fish dies in QT its not likely because of the copper. The copper sensitivity was an issue with older copper formulas with citric acid.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

The only thing really fluctuating is ammonia starts 0 each change (because 100% water change), but creeps up to whatever it does depending on the bioload. In my case, .5-.75 first day, 1-1.5 2nd day, and 2-3 3rd day, which was seemingly too high since I lost one.

Not trying to beat you up over the sad results, but I was looking into this a little more. The TTM that most seem to follow was outlined by Humblefish. In a reply to someone asking about water quality during the TTM, HF also says, in part:

"Now, if you are talking about the need to do water changes during the 72 hours before the fish gets transferred.. that is highly dependent upon your water volume + fish bioload. Meaning, at no time should your fish be exposed to ANY ammonia."

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Thank you! Interesting.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Plus TTM is likely stressful for the fish. Every time you move them over you are pretty much mimicking a predation event. I strongly discourage TTM for people on here as its less comprehensive for disease coverage and more stressful than copper. Wrasses are fine in copper power/safe btw. If a fish dies in QT its not likely because of the copper. The copper sensitivity was an issue with older copper formulas with citric acid.

Interesting. You’re pretty confident in this? I’ll try to do more research. I’m about to order 3-4 wrasses soon, so I’d love to understand my best path forward. Still leaning towards TTM in two 10 gallons swapping as they’ll be smaller, but if I could do copper in my 30 gallon QT/Hospital tank that would be nice. Any articles/threads appreciated but will do my own research of course!

leaning towards 6 line, leopard, and a fairy wrasse probably. If they’re small enough maybe a Diamond Goby at same time.

my problem this last time was I went with too large of fish for my little 10 gallons for TTM.

3 smaller 1-2” wrasse + 2-3” Diamond Goby should be good in my 30 gallon which is cycled. If copper actually will work. I’ll research more thanks! Those 3-4 would probably also work fine in 10g TTM, so both probably viable.

 

[Tamberav]

As a person who does a lot of TTM and on many wrasses. It is not appropriate for all fish.

It is very hard on flashers/fairy’s, sand sifting gobies, and jawfish. These fish simply are wayyyy to panicky and injury and stress is very high. I haven’t tried dartfish but I assume fish like that would have similar results.

These are the type of fish who will injure themselves or jump two feet out of the tank and onto the floor when you try to catch them.

Don’t even think about using a net. This can cause abrasions on fish and can lead to infection. You need a soft silicone type colander that is large and preferably square if your tank is square so the fish can’t escape in the corners. You want to be able to scoop them out almost immediately without a lot of chasing.

I was able to TTM sand sleeper wrasses fairly easy but others seem to have a lot of problems with them so I would say they may be difficult as well. You definitely need a new batch of sand every time.

Also ammonia should never be present. If it is, you are feeding too much or tank is too small for what it houses and TTM is causing harm not help.

I would do copper if you are buying flighty panicky fish. Also worth realizing that wrasses can be poor shippers.

Regular TTM only addresses ich.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

As a person who does a lot of TTM and on many wrasses. It is not appropriate for all fish.

It is very hard on flashers/fairy’s, sand sifting gobies, and jawfish. These fish simply are wayyyy to panicky and injury and stress is very high. I haven’t tried dartfish but I assume fish like that would have similar results.

These are the type of fish who will injure themselves or jump two feet out of the tank and onto the floor when you try to catch them.

Don’t even think about using a net. This can cause abrasions on fish and can lead to infection. You need a soft silicone type colander that is large and preferably square if your tank is square so the fish can’t escape in the corners. You want to be able to scoop them out almost immediately without a lot of chasing.

I was able to TTM sand sleeper wrasses fairly easy but others seem to have a lot of problems with them so I would say they may be difficult as well. You definitely need a new batch of sand every time.

Also ammonia should never be present. If it is, you are feeding too much or tank is too small for what it houses and TTM is causing harm not help.

I would do copper if you are buying flighty panicky fish. Also worth realizing that wrasses can be poor shippers.

Regular TTM only addresses ich.

Thanks for the info. For copper sensitive wrasse as an example, what do you recommend? Above someone said some copper medications work for wrasse. Any opinion here?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thanks for the info. For copper sensitive wrasse as an example, what do you recommend? Above someone said some copper medications work for wrasse. Any opinion here?

There is an entire sub forum dedicated to fish disease... I suggest you do some reading there.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

There is an entire sub forum dedicated to fish disease... I suggest you do some reading there.

K will do. Thanks. The search function on R2R isn’t very good, or I’m bad at using it. I typically try google and just include reef2reef in search and that works decently. Will try some more.