To dip or not to dip ... the insecticide trend
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Ah, but there's a reason we use Bayer insecticide and not just any insecticide.
And that's still a valid point.
Additionally, it's worth noting there are a LOT of vendors out there, as well as many LFS, which use Bayer as a dip long before you buy that coral.
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M
me too.Your crash thread made me cry
PatW
2500 Club Member
The Bayer product has two active ingredients. One is a neonicatinamide. It is a variant of nicotine and attacks the CNS. Insects are very sensitive. Mammals are not. The sensitivity of other inverts has probably not been studied. I would think corals would not be terribly sensitive but crustacians would be. The pesticide breaks down rapidly so long term problems beyond initial damage would be slight.
The other ingredient is a pyrethroid. Again, it is a neural toxin that insects are sensitive to. It breaks down pretty fast. I found more information on the first ingredient.
Now this stuff is a poison. Do you take a chance of a possible minor level of damage to your coral in exchange for what looks like an effective dip for most parasites?
The other ingredient is a pyrethroid. Again, it is a neural toxin that insects are sensitive to. It breaks down pretty fast. I found more information on the first ingredient.
Now this stuff is a poison. Do you take a chance of a possible minor level of damage to your coral in exchange for what looks like an effective dip for most parasites?
ritter6788
Coral Fraud Private Eye
Yes. I do anyway.
I'm dealing with aefw right now. I'll take the chance of the coral dying in the dip over introducing pests to my entire reef. I haven't lost a coral yet to Bayer dip. I have lost some coral to pests and dips especially made for coral pests. I'm knocking out ref bugs in the process which no coral dip that I know of will get rid of, Bayer will.
SnoQ
Active Member
I have been using a commercially available coral dip and while I absolutely cannot say I know the ingredients, it's been rumored that it is actually comprised of Bayer, Melafix and Aloe Vera. And based on the smell of those individual products and this dip, I think it's pretty accurate. I just did a tank swap and although I had no signs of pests I decided to dip all of my coral before putting them into the new tank. I already had a 4oz bottle of this dip on hand that I'd paid $29.99 for and I used the entire bottle. Am I now going to go pay $29.99 for 4oz again? No. I have been reading up on Bayer pretty extensively and I believe that if it's used properly it's a great, lower cost option. As with the dip I was using, I will be doing multiple clean tank water dips as a follow up with carbon running in the last one.
nmouncey
Community Member
I'll just give my quick 2 cents here. I have used only the Bayer for the past year or so. I have tried every kind of coral I own....many, many species. Countless SPS, LPS, zoa....palys...mushrooms....acans.....duncans....cloves....delicate things.....hardy things.....
Nothing has died in the short term.
I watch things closely for several weeks after the dip and have noticed no ill effects on anything. I used to go by the prescribed amount on all the web sites...so many mm per gallon for so long. In the end, I realized what color the water turns with the addition of the chemical. So now I add a few drops at a time until it is smoky looking, not opaque white. I can still see the coral easily. I swirl for 20 seconds in both directions. I let it sit for 5-10 minutes, swirling fromtime to time. Then I give the coral a fresh saltwater dip and put it in the tank. The coral frequently polyps soon after it's dip...and I often see SPS with polyps out sitting in the dip. This makes me feel like the coral is experiencing no irritation while being dipped, but obviously this is not scientific : )
I did test where I would dip in something like Coral RX....see what came off...and then add the Bayer to see if anything further came off. In every case I saw dead pods...I believe I saw more after the addition of the Bayer. I think it's just a harsher chemical.
After six months of "testing" I stopped using anything else. I still dip in Coral RX when I frag, as it's supposed to have some healing property that the Bayer likely does not.
So, nothing scientific for sure. But I swear by it and trust all my coral to it. Feel free to write me with any questions about it.
Nothing has died in the short term.
I watch things closely for several weeks after the dip and have noticed no ill effects on anything. I used to go by the prescribed amount on all the web sites...so many mm per gallon for so long. In the end, I realized what color the water turns with the addition of the chemical. So now I add a few drops at a time until it is smoky looking, not opaque white. I can still see the coral easily. I swirl for 20 seconds in both directions. I let it sit for 5-10 minutes, swirling fromtime to time. Then I give the coral a fresh saltwater dip and put it in the tank. The coral frequently polyps soon after it's dip...and I often see SPS with polyps out sitting in the dip. This makes me feel like the coral is experiencing no irritation while being dipped, but obviously this is not scientific : )
I did test where I would dip in something like Coral RX....see what came off...and then add the Bayer to see if anything further came off. In every case I saw dead pods...I believe I saw more after the addition of the Bayer. I think it's just a harsher chemical.
After six months of "testing" I stopped using anything else. I still dip in Coral RX when I frag, as it's supposed to have some healing property that the Bayer likely does not.
So, nothing scientific for sure. But I swear by it and trust all my coral to it. Feel free to write me with any questions about it.
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
I'd have to agree with evolved. I don't believe most of these products see as much testing as many of us wish was the case and ultimately the review and results are only truly tested by fellow hobbyist. I've been dipping in Bayer for about 2 years now and can say that it's been more effective for me than any other dip I use and corals recover much faster, often having polyp extension shortly after being added back to the dip.
I use CoralRX, Revive, Iodine, Flatworm Exit, and Bayer on coral additions over a 6 week period in QT before going to my grow out system. That being said, the only two dips I'll use on the more delicate coral additions are Revive and Bayer. I've never lost a coral which I've found pointed to either one of these dips but the Bayer has always been the most effective in stunning/killing everything minus the coral.
I use many products on my 1,000 gallon reef that are not designed for the hobby, they are often the same or just as effective minus the hobby margin markup. Also not cheap when it comes to anything reef, because you often get what you pay for in this hobby\world!
I appreciate the write up and a great debate! :bigsmile:
I use CoralRX, Revive, Iodine, Flatworm Exit, and Bayer on coral additions over a 6 week period in QT before going to my grow out system. That being said, the only two dips I'll use on the more delicate coral additions are Revive and Bayer. I've never lost a coral which I've found pointed to either one of these dips but the Bayer has always been the most effective in stunning/killing everything minus the coral.
I use many products on my 1,000 gallon reef that are not designed for the hobby, they are often the same or just as effective minus the hobby margin markup. Also not cheap when it comes to anything reef, because you often get what you pay for in this hobby\world!
I appreciate the write up and a great debate! :bigsmile:
aefw Acro Eating FlatWworm
I have wondered how the reef manufacturers can get away with not listing the Active Ingredients and MSDS. The laws from the Department of Agriculture require this. Also, FIFRA laws are being violated. What happens when a kid gets into something and gets sick or dies from an accidental poisoning?
I have wondered how the reef manufacturers can get away with not listing the Active Ingredients and MSDS. The laws from the Department of Agriculture require this. Also, FIFRA laws are being violated. What happens when a kid gets into something and gets sick or dies from an accidental poisoning?
OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
I think this discussion brings up the important point, touched on briefly earlier. There isn't enough transparency in what makes up our aquarium products. When you spend $ 30 bucks on a 4 oz bottle of something, it would be nice to know what's in it. Perhaps the ingredients are similar to what's in Bayer, and without transparency, we will never know. Who knows, perhaps several commercially available coral dips, have been using the same ingredients in Bayer Advanced for a while, and we already have long-term results to go off, they just aren't being shared with home hobbyists.
I'm not an aquarium industry lobbyist, though I do know in the cases of Red Sea, API, Brightwell Aquatics and a few others, their products are the result of large scale, long term research, by a body of scientists. Bio Chem Zorb for example, took a number of years for API to develop, and has specific properties that make it unique among filtration media, since it was designed with the goal of being used in aquaria. The same goes for Red Sea's Reef Care Program. Years of research were spent learning what specific coral species needed in captivity, and blends of additives were formulated and tested. The test kits used in the reef care program, were specifically designed to work in conjunction with the additives, all developed by scientists.
I know when I worked in public aquaria, we used a blend of aquarium specific products, and products used by veterinary scientists, to treat both fish and invertebrates. Although, in that setting, everything was overseen by biologists, veterinarians and we could reach out to an entire network of public aquaria nation wide.
I'm not an aquarium industry lobbyist, though I do know in the cases of Red Sea, API, Brightwell Aquatics and a few others, their products are the result of large scale, long term research, by a body of scientists. Bio Chem Zorb for example, took a number of years for API to develop, and has specific properties that make it unique among filtration media, since it was designed with the goal of being used in aquaria. The same goes for Red Sea's Reef Care Program. Years of research were spent learning what specific coral species needed in captivity, and blends of additives were formulated and tested. The test kits used in the reef care program, were specifically designed to work in conjunction with the additives, all developed by scientists.
I know when I worked in public aquaria, we used a blend of aquarium specific products, and products used by veterinary scientists, to treat both fish and invertebrates. Although, in that setting, everything was overseen by biologists, veterinarians and we could reach out to an entire network of public aquaria nation wide.
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We do know that ingredients used in bayer is obviously not used in any of the commercial products because the commercial products do not kill aefw
Do a search here and on rc and you will see the countless experiments done with all the commercial
Dips. It's funny to see aefw swimming in iodine based dips at 10 times the recommended dosage without any harm to them at all. If the commercial chemist would spend more time reading these boards and seeing that most of their products are snake oil. They would have a more loyal following and a higher sales rate
Only the rps dip has tried to target aefw. Revive and the other dips have not had a chane in their formulation since they came out 15 years ago. Before any one knew about aefw
After you have been in the hobby for so long you realize. That water changes and the addition of the big 3 is all you need for a successful reef. But the companies keep pushing snake oil and fix all products. To keep their profit margin high but in return most reefers are laughing at how bad their companies have become
Do a search here and on rc and you will see the countless experiments done with all the commercial
Dips. It's funny to see aefw swimming in iodine based dips at 10 times the recommended dosage without any harm to them at all. If the commercial chemist would spend more time reading these boards and seeing that most of their products are snake oil. They would have a more loyal following and a higher sales rate
Only the rps dip has tried to target aefw. Revive and the other dips have not had a chane in their formulation since they came out 15 years ago. Before any one knew about aefw
After you have been in the hobby for so long you realize. That water changes and the addition of the big 3 is all you need for a successful reef. But the companies keep pushing snake oil and fix all products. To keep their profit margin high but in return most reefers are laughing at how bad their companies have become
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OP
OP
reeffirstaid
Active Member
I agree Turbo, there is a lot of snake oil out there. IMHO, more and more come out each year. I know traditionally, aefw were treated with concentrations of Flatworm Exit, 30x higher than the recommended dosage. As I said in my article, we may find out that using Bayer Advanced was a huge advancement in the hobby, or we may find out it had unforeseen consequences. It really is, at this point, an unknown. As for snake oil coral cures, there are more snake oil aquarium products out there, then truly formulated, effective and researched products. In many cases, a product may be effective, but the dosing and treatment requirements need to be greatly tweaked. I know personally, in transitioning my system to zeovit, following what's on the label, hasn't worked, but experimenting has made the system very effective.
In ReVive's defense, it states that it isn't a coral medication. It's simply a plant based cleaner. The problem with this, ReVive doesn't specifically tell us what it is supposed to do, other than it's not a medication. Is it like wiping a wound with iodine, adding neosporene to a cut, or washing your hands. It doesn't really say, but makes it appear more like a simple, quick, coral wash.
In ReVive's defense, it states that it isn't a coral medication. It's simply a plant based cleaner. The problem with this, ReVive doesn't specifically tell us what it is supposed to do, other than it's not a medication. Is it like wiping a wound with iodine, adding neosporene to a cut, or washing your hands. It doesn't really say, but makes it appear more like a simple, quick, coral wash.
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xcorallusx
unregistered
The big companies have dips that worked and are pricy, but they would often kill/stress sensitive corals, or just work for a certain pest. Bayer is not pricy, can be found very easily, and I have yet to loose a coral after dipping. I dont care what the company's scientists credential's are or how many years they studied their dip, all I care about is that bayer works better than their products. Bayer has been used as a SUCCESSFUL dip for several years now with plenty of threads/info, this thread reminds me of "Do LEDS grow coral" LOL I find it odd that you have never encountered aefw and you work in reef maintenance? haha you can even dip hawkins and clams!
You would be surprised of the number of people who have never heard of aefw furthermore the amount of people that don't dip their corals. I talk to people at frag swap who
Buy corals from me who don't dip
Anything
I know of locals that have stopped over and seen my jug of bayer and asked what it is for and when I tell the them about aefw they look at me like I am crazy
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