Thought this was Crypto…

[MythosRaconteur]

Hi all,

I have a FOWLR setup with some Capnella sp. and Favia sp. for color.

My Mappa puffer got a few spots which looked like Crypto, so I pulled her and she is going through TTM. My Desjardini tang had a couple of similar spot on his pec fins, which he has had before and just fought off.

Spots on the tang got worse over a week or so, and this morning he looked like this.

No new fish, lightly stocked (everything 4” or less), Mappa, tang, pair of maroon clowns, longboard hawk, leopard wrasse and a snowflake moray.

Tank (60g) is well established and has had no probs. Chem is all good, pH fluxes a bit but I keep it between 7.8 and 8.2 pretty well. NH3 and NO2 at 0.

Not sure what this is, and he is healthy and behaving fairly normal… today he will not raise his dorsal fin, and resps are a bit high.

Want to figure out what this is before I try fishing him out and treating.

I am thinking Brook or Velvet, but haven’t added a fish in 4 months or so… not sure where it would have come from.

 

[eliaslikesfish]

@Jay Hemdal #fishmedic

 

[Jekyl]

Can you please provide some white light photos and a short video?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi all,

I have a FOWLR setup with some Capnella sp. and Favia sp. for color.

My Mappa puffer got a few spots which looked like Crypto, so I pulled her and she is going through TTM. My Desjardini tang had a couple of similar spot on his pec fins, which he has had before and just fought off.

Spots on the tang got worse over a week or so, and this morning he looked like this.

No new fish, lightly stocked (everything 4” or less), Mappa, tang, pair of maroon clowns, longboard hawk, leopard wrasse and a snowflake moray.

Tank (60g) is well established and has had no probs. Chem is all good, pH fluxes a bit but I keep it between 7.8 and 8.2 pretty well. NH3 and NO2 at 0.

Not sure what this is, and he is healthy and behaving fairly normal… today he will not raise his dorsal fin, and resps are a bit high.

Want to figure out what this is before I try fishing him out and treating.

I am thinking Brook or Velvet, but haven’t added a fish in 4 months or so… not sure where it would have come from.

The little thread like bumps show mucus plugs or cones which tangs are very prone to getting. There may be ich mixed in there as well one source of these mucus cones is often ich. These begin with a skin reaction or from a reaction to stress, sometimes from previous ich or other disease present. Often other fsh will not show signs but are at risk as they have been exposed to this fish.
Do any of the other fish show these spots?
Fish sometimes develop excess mucus that excretes from the producing skin cells which rises up as a cone or a plug. These again often derive from skin irritation.
Assure good water quality and for cure often good water quality will diminish it but treating with coppersafe and copper power may help at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Here are a couple more pics and vids. Did that first video not come through?

No one else seems affected.

Would rather not throw him in copper if I don’t need to. Even getting him into QT will be stressful since I will need to start tearing rock out of the tank and chasing him around with a net.

Really want to get a DNA test to see what is in there but if it is something fast moving I don’t want to lose him while awaiting results.

Really weird… he had some HLLE which has been getting better. The not bit left is the little notches above his eyes, but when I was taking the photos it looks like tiny pits all over his face now. Hard to tell if it is just color or not.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

One more vid

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I see two possible diagnoses here; either uncontrolled, long term (stale) ich, or really severe flukes. What happens is that after some time, with an ich infection, the spots sort of go away and the fish gets an overall cloudiness to its skin and it begins to breath fast. The trouble is, severe flukes can show the same symptoms.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

I have not had an appreciable ich outbreak outside of this since rebuilding the tank 7 months ago or so. The Map got a couple of dots, and the tang had a few on his pec fins a week or so prior to this. Before that no ich other than an occasional spot or two on the tang. His skin has been great, and the HLLE has been reversing (the small crescent-shaped pits above his eyes are all that are left).

Can't imagine flukes, since nothing else is affected and no new fish for several months.

It really looks like images I have seen of Brook or Velvet (I have no first-hand experience), but, again, where would it have come from?

He is behaving mostly normally... resps are still elevated, and he darts across the tank every once in a while, but other than that, eating and acting normally.

I am going to wait to see what happens overnight, if for no other reason than I think trying to catch him, which requires removing rock-work, will stress him out considerably, and I could see that either killing him, or allowing whatever this is to wipe him out.

I have to rely on his health, and the high-quality foods, vitamins and immunostimulants he has been getting to see him through the night.

Fingers crossed, and thanks all for the input!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have not had an appreciable ich outbreak outside of this since rebuilding the tank 7 months ago or so. The Map got a couple of dots, and the tang had a few on his pec fins a week or so prior to this. Before that no ich other than an occasional spot or two on the tang. His skin has been great, and the HLLE has been reversing (the small crescent-shaped pits above his eyes are all that are left).

Can't imagine flukes, since nothing else is affected and no new fish for several months.

It really looks like images I have seen of Brook or Velvet (I have no first-hand experience), but, again, where would it have come from?

He is behaving mostly normally... resps are still elevated, and he darts across the tank every once in a while, but other than that, eating and acting normally.

I am going to wait to see what happens overnight, if for no other reason than I think trying to catch him, which requires removing rock-work, will stress him out considerably, and I could see that either killing him, or allowing whatever this is to wipe him out.

I have to rely on his health, and the high-quality foods, vitamins and immunostimulants he has been getting to see him through the night.

Fingers crossed, and thanks all for the input!

I think you can rule out Velvet (Amyloodinium) as that doesn't cause skin issues until the fish is close to the end. The first symptoms are rapid breathing and hanging in the water current and not eating. I also think you can rule out Brooklynella. Tangs don't get that very often, and this just doesn't look like it to me.

So - I'm still thinking ich or severe flukes. In looking at the video again, and seeing the other fish not being affected, I'm leaning towards Neobenedenia flukes. Just an FYI - no diet/supplements can cure that once it becomes severe like this. The best treatment would be hyposalinity at 1.012 for 30 days. Of course, you cannot do that with invertebrates present. You could try Prazipro treatments, those are reef safe, but you would need multiple treatments (at least 3) spaced 8 days apart.

A 5 minute FW dip would tell you if the tang has Neobenedenia or not, but to be honest, I don't think the tang is strong enough to tolerate that. What happens is that each fluke makes a hole in the fish's skin and sucks out the bodily fluids. A FW dip causes ALL of the flukes to drop off at once, leaving thousands of tiny holes in the fish's skin - and they can literally bleed out on you.

Jay

 

[nereefpat]

Hyposalinity would treat ich and flukes. I think that's the best option here. I do see the corals, so you'd have to use a different tank.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Ok... so, the tang was looking a bit better last night, and behaving more normally. I decided to see what happened in the morning.

Woke up this morning to find him hanging near the top 1/3 of the water column (no bobbing at the surface), and out of it enough that I could scoop him up in a container with no issues. Did that and got him into a 1.010 dip with some Ich-X (only thing I had handy), and left him in for about 45m.

He is now in QT, hypo at 1.xx, and breathing hard but alert.

His fins are RAGGED, like bone showing through on some dorsal rays, and there is still a lot of mucus coming off of him. No one picks on him, so I know it is not aggression.

I am fairly convinced I will lose him, although he is hanging on.

The bigger problem is that both of my clowns were dead. So whatever this is, moves FAST, and hit the clowns harder than the tang (they were happy and very healthy as well).

Looking at the photos in this post (Brook article on NanoReef) has me thinking maybe this was a Brook outbreak, and would explain my previous issue back in October where I thought I had a nasty Crypto outbreak. Lost clowns then as well.

Still not sure where it came from or how it went for 7+ months without showing up only to suddenly claim 2-3 fish.

Longnosed Hawk, Leopard Wrasse and Snowflake are all still in the tank and doing just fine.

Considering pulling the rock with corals attached to it, and the inverts, scooping up the fish and eel for hyposaline TTM, and then NUKING the tank with copper just unmonitored, very high-dose, and let it run until the fish get through TTM.

I hate not having lab equipment to do this properly!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok... so, the tang was looking a bit better last night, and behaving more normally. I decided to see what happened in the morning.

Woke up this morning to find him hanging near the top 1/3 of the water column (no bobbing at the surface), and out of it enough that I could scoop him up in a container with no issues. Did that and got him into a 1.010 dip with some Ich-X (only thing I had handy), and left him in for about 45m.

He is now in QT, hypo at 1.xx, and breathing hard but alert.

His fins are RAGGED, like bone showing through on some dorsal rays, and there is still a lot of mucus coming off of him. No one picks on him, so I know it is not aggression.

I am fairly convinced I will lose him, although he is hanging on.

The bigger problem is that both of my clowns were dead. So whatever this is, moves FAST, and hit the clowns harder than the tang (they were happy and very healthy as well).

Looking at the photos in this post (Brook article on NanoReef) has me thinking maybe this was a Brook outbreak, and would explain my previous issue back in October where I thought I had a nasty Crypto outbreak. Lost clowns then as well.

Still not sure where it came from or how it went for 7+ months without showing up only to suddenly claim 2-3 fish.

Longnosed Hawk, Leopard Wrasse and Snowflake are all still in the tank and doing just fine.

Considering pulling the rock with corals attached to it, and the inverts, scooping up the fish and eel for hyposaline TTM, and then NUKING the tank with copper just unmonitored, very high-dose, and let it run until the fish get through TTM.

I hate not having lab equipment to do this properly!

While the diagnosis here is still unclear, In order to knock Neobenedenia off of a fish, you need to do the standard 5 minute pure FW dip. 1.010 will treat Neo, but that takes 30 days, not 45 minutes.

A FW dip can serve as a diagnostic tool as you can see the dead Neo in the container afterwards.

I’m not advocating that you do a FW dip now though, the fish has already been stressed out.

I would not advise hitting a tank with high copper. If this is flukes, that won’t help. If the tank has any calcareous substrate in it, the copper will contaminate it.

If you want to reset the tank and eliminate all bacteria and parasites, 500 ppm bleach for 24 hours in freshwater - then dump and fill will work much better than copper.

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Yeah, the bleach route is what I took when I broke the tank down originally.

Lost the tang this morning, and he had open wounds all over him... head, caudal peduncle, dorsal fin rays exposed... It looked like some sort of flesh-eating bacteria, which looks and feels like something like Brook.

I did FW dip him when I got him out of the tank and Ich-X'd him originally, but the water was clear - nothing floating in there like flukes had come off.

I suspect the dip (FW+Ich-X) took whatever was on him off, but the damage was just too great for him to recover, as the wounds seemed to get worse in QT. His skin started turning pink, and then the open wounds became more evident.

Now, I am not sure where to go... tank has inverts, Longnosed Hawk, Leopard Wrasse and Snowflake, but no one seems affected. No obvious sign on surface (although all 3 would be tough to see spots given their coloring), no odd behavior (flashing, rapid resps, etc.).

So, part of me (the optimist) wants to think if I leave the tank as-is for a period (15-20 days), whatever it is will be gone (especially if the fish remain symptom-free).

But the scientist in me wonders where it goes, and if the fish are Typhoid Marys... asymptomatically carrying whatever it is, only to infect my little Map when I put her back in.

Would rather not break the tank down and bleach again, but also not sure if, whatever it is, has tomonts that can live in substrate, implying the need to toss the sand and dry the rock, etc.

I did send out for a tankDNA kit from AquaBiomics. I need to know what I am dealing with.

The thing that kills me is that is just came out of the blue... no stressors, new fish, changes... nothing. Just the daily routine.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah, the bleach route is what I took when I broke the tank down originally.

Lost the tang this morning, and he had open wounds all over him... head, caudal peduncle, dorsal fin rays exposed... It looked like some sort of flesh-eating bacteria, which looks and feels like something like Brook.

I did FW dip him when I got him out of the tank and Ich-X'd him originally, but the water was clear - nothing floating in there like flukes had come off.

I suspect the dip (FW+Ich-X) took whatever was on him off, but the damage was just too great for him to recover, as the wounds seemed to get worse in QT. His skin started turning pink, and then the open wounds became more evident.

Now, I am not sure where to go... tank has inverts, Longnosed Hawk, Leopard Wrasse and Snowflake, but no one seems affected. No obvious sign on surface (although all 3 would be tough to see spots given their coloring), no odd behavior (flashing, rapid resps, etc.).

So, part of me (the optimist) wants to think if I leave the tank as-is for a period (15-20 days), whatever it is will be gone (especially if the fish remain symptom-free).

But the scientist in me wonders where it goes, and if the fish are Typhoid Marys... asymptomatically carrying whatever it is, only to infect my little Map when I put her back in.

Would rather not break the tank down and bleach again, but also not sure if, whatever it is, has tomonts that can live in substrate, implying the need to toss the sand and dry the rock, etc.

I did send out for a tankDNA kit from AquaBiomics. I need to know what I am dealing with.

The thing that kills me is that is just came out of the blue... no stressors, new fish, changes... nothing. Just the daily routine.

Let us know what Aquabiomics says.

I generally tell people to wait 30 days after a fish in a tank has died from unknown causes before giving an "all clear". I personally wait 45 days. Quarantine is derived from the Italian Quattro, apparently in reference to "4 weeks".



Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Will do.

That is an interesting tidbit about "quarantine." I did not know that.

I am reluctant to put the Map back until I have a better handle on what is going on... she is pretty happy in her QT, and I am able to feed her specific things without her competing with Oatmeel (the Snowflake, named by my daughter) for meaty foods.

Getting her acclimated to hand-feeding and playing with toys has been an upside to all of this.

Thanks, as always, for the thought-partnership. I appreciate you and the community here for all of the input and ideas!