Testing of Chemiclean

[jda]

Purpose: to determine what is in Chemiclean

Reason: Boyd has long maintained that there are no antibiotics in Chemiclean. Boyd even goes as far as to say that there is no Erythromycin Succinate in the product, which is very odd since there are many other forms of Erythromycin and they just could have said that it contains no Erythromycin. In any case, labels must list any antibiotics that are present in any form.

Overview: Compare ChemiClean with other known EM compounds. Specifically API EM Erthyomycin and Fritz Maracin.

From now on, EM is going to mean Erythomycin.

Steps:
1). Physical attributes

• Appearance
• Weight
• Smell

2). Does the product kill Cyano

• Does the skimmer go nuts
• Does the cyano die in a similar timeframe as ChemiClean

3). Take for FTIR testing if appropriate

4). Take for NMR if appropriate

Notes:
Expect ChemiClean to contain EM Phoshpate (probably wrong, if you read onward). If so, people are going to get mad. The last time that a manufacturer told lies, somebody got the EPA and Dept of Ag involved. In this case, probably more FDA, but penalties still exist for mislabeling, or not labeling products. Strongly suggest that any manufacturer come clean and start to label their product correctly.

FTIR of three substances is about $200, which is no problem, but need to make sure that it can be done accurately before I mess with it. I will need some help (see post #4).

If FTIR is a match, then maybe NMR for each substance.

...more posts to come.

Here is a phot of all three compounds next to each other:

Here is the back of the ChemiClean box. This is so odd to me. It is like if you asked a kid if they ate all of the chocolate and they told you that they didn't eat any of the ice cream.

 

[jda]

For API EM Erythromycin.

Physical Attributes

• The stuff looks granular and not powdery like ChemiClean.
• Each packet is said to contain 200mg of EM and treats 10 gallons. Those packets weigh about 2.4 grams. The stuff looks granular like salt - when that 2.4g was mixed with 100mls of water, it had a SG of 1.012 on my hydrometer.
• The packet had no smell, but when mixed with water, it smelled just like ChemiClean

Kill Cyano?
Added just 2 packets to my newly setup 40g cube that has about 30g of water in it. I went with a light dose out of caution. This tank is fairly new and while pretty stable, it had a bit of cyano in the bottom on the sand. ...so about 2/3 of what ChemiClean label says to use.

• The skimmer went nuts. The skimmer is a HOB AquaC Remora which is an injection skimmer - it cannot overflow like most NW skimmers, but it would have if it could.
• Cyano is dead. 48 hours later, the tank is super clean.

API does not mention what type of EM is in the product, at least that I can see. If anybody else has better search skills or knows where to look, that might help to see what the other ingredients are.

Scale and Look:

Before EM Erythromycin:

After EM Erythromycin (and with a Cerith laying Eggs):

Mad protein skimmer:

 

[jda]

For Fritz Maracyn.

Physical Attributes:

• Powdery and lighter.
• Each packet treats 10 gallon. Box says that each packet contains 200mg of Erythromycin "activity." A packet weighed .6 grams. This stuff had 0.00 sg on my refractometer when also mixed with 100ml of water.
• Packet has an obvious smell that seems identical to ChemiClean and also to API EM EM mixed with water.

Kill Cyano?
No idea - I don't have any cyano left to kill.

Fritz mentions on their site that the product is EM Phospate.

 

[jda]

Here is my question to the chemist type folks... since I need an exact match to compare FTIR, is this even worth doing? I imagine that salts will mess up the infrared, right?

I suppose that we could assume that most of what is left is salts and filler and add salt to the ChemiClean and test it, but it would seem that the types matter, right?

Is this as far as I go? Is there any other tests that can be done on the substances?

Are there any known FTIR or NMR of different antibiotics that we can compare ChemiClean to if I get few graphs and the raw data?

@Randy Holmes-Farley
@taricha
@Dan_P

FWIW - I was able to get some doxycycline and amoxicillin for fish treatment from a friend and they did not smell like these three. That is as good as NMR, right? If anybody has used ChemiClean or any of these other EM products, they really have a distinct smell. Those others also do not reported to make the skimmer go crazy like EM does, but I did not test them. Maybe I can ask @Jay Hemdal if remembers any skimmers overflowing if he ever treated with other antibiotics other than EM.

Ok - I have to go and do my water change and put some GAC on this tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Purpose: to determine what is in Chemiclean

Reason: Boyd has long maintained that there are no antibiotics in Chemiclean. Boyd even goes as far as to say that there is no Erythromycin Succinate in the product, which is very odd since there are many other forms of Erythromycin and they just could have said that it contains no Erythromycin.

Overview: Compare ChemiClean with other known EM compounds. Specifically API EM Erthyomycin and Fritz Maracin.

From now on, EM is going to mean Erythomycin.

Steps:
1). Physical attributes

• Appearance
• Weight
• Smell

2). Does the product kill Cyano

• Does the skimmer go nuts
• Does the cyano die in a similar timeframe as ChemiClean

3). Take for FTIR testing if appropriate

4). Take for NMR if appropriate

Notes:
Expect ChemiClean to contain EM Phoshpate. If so, eople are going to get mad. The last time that a manufacturer told lies, somebody got the EPA and Dept of Ag involved. In this case, probably more FDA, but penalties still exist for mislabeling, or not labeling products. Strongly suggest that any manufacturer come clean and start to label their product correctly.

FTIR of three substances is about $200, which is no problem, but need to make sure that it can be done accurately before I mess with it. I will need some help.

If FTIR is a match, then maybe NMR for each substance.

...more posts to come.

This is excellent. and I have a couple comments : 1. I am not sure - but - would it make sense just to do a chemical analysis. The problem that I see is that it's known that Erythromycin kills cyanobacteria(well documented in multiple scientific papers). However, so do multiple other antibiotics. And, there are other chemicals that also kill cyan - so #1, #2 will not really tell you much about the composition of chemiclean (for example - they could have more than one colored product in their mixture - such that color won't make a difference. Many things make a skimmer go nuts. Since you don't know how much erythromycin/'spoonful' is present - it's hard to compare any of the other compounds. i.e. you don't know how much potential erythromycin might be in chemiclean. IMHO - the way to prove what a compound is - is FTR or NMR. Appreciate the idea of the experiment - and it's something thats widely questioned. My comment merely reflects - that we know that erythromycin kills cyanobacteria - so the 2 comparators will. But many other things also kill cyanobacteria.

Looking at the Boyd website - I don't see anything - that suggests there is or is not an antibiotic present (I might have missed it) - this makes the situation different than the other scenario to which you were referring.

 

[taricha]

Thanks. I don't think I had seen a demonstration that the working dose of API Erythromycin is enough to have chemiclean-like effects on cyano.

I have no sense for how difficult / easy it would be to identify erythromycin itself out of a background of excipients, fillers etc in the products with FTIR or NMR.

 

[Dan_P]

Here is my question to the chemist type folks... since I need an exact match to compare FTIR, is this even worth doing? I imagine that salts will mess up the infrared, right?

I suppose that we could assume that most of what is left is salts and filler and add salt to the ChemiClean and test it, but it would seem that the types matter, right?

Is this as far as I go? Is there any other tests that can be done on the substances?

Are there any known FTIR or NMR of different antibiotics that we can compare ChemiClean to if I get few graphs and the raw data?

@Randy Holmes-Farley
@taricha
@Dan_P

FWIW - I was able to get some doxycycline and amoxicillin for fish treatment from a friend and they did not smell like these three. That is as good as NMR, right? If anybody has used ChemiClean or any of these other EM products, they really have a distinct smell. Those others also do not reported to make the skimmer go crazy like EM does, but I did not test them. Maybe I can ask @Jay Hemdal if remembers any skimmers overflowing if he ever treated with other antibiotics other than EM.

Ok - I have to go and do my water change and put some GAC on this tank.

The skimmer going crazy effect is the counter ion used with EM probably not EM itself. If all three cause the skimmer to foam like mad, that makes me think they are all using the EM estolate salt.

I would further guess that they are all using the same or similar formulation. There are not many suppliers of this stuff nor many variations of the formulation of the estolate salt that is approved for sale. This means you make your money by making and selling a standard formulation exactly as described in the registration. FTIR might be the way to go.

 

[Dan_P]

The skimmer going crazy effect is the counter ion used with EM probably not EM itself. If all three cause the skimmer to foam like mad, that makes me think they are all using the EM estolate salt.

I would further guess that they are all using the same or similar formulation. There are not many suppliers of this stuff nor many variations of the formulation of the estolate salt that is approved for sale. This means you make your money by making and selling a standard formulation exactly as described in the registration. FTIR might be the way to go.

I am having second thoughts about FTIR. It is a polyhydroxyl and the FTIR might be a mess

 

[taricha]

This is an MSDS for a powder Erythromycin from API (Mars Fishcare)

If this is an accurate representation of the E.M. erythromycin we buy, it may be a pretty simple source for a comparison compound.

Do we detect significant PO4 from a normal dose of any of these products?

 

[jda]

I have plenty of packets. If you let me know how to mix it up, I can mix and run it though my Hannah if anybody think that it will manifest as ortho and change the color.

 

[Dan_P]

This is an MSDS for a powder Erythromycin from API (Mars Fishcare)

If this is an accurate representation of the E.M. erythromycin we buy, it may be a pretty simple source for a comparison compound.

Do we detect significant PO4 from a normal dose of any of these products?

So, dissolve some Chemiclean in fresh saltwater and measure PO4?

 

[chipchipbro]

Would be cool if you could grab some CyanoClean from Modern Reef. The instructions on how to use it are similar to ChemiClean and they told me there is NO antibiotics in it. Confirmed by text message support.

 

[Dan_P]

I have plenty of packets. If you let me know how to mix it up, I can mix and run it though my Hannah if anybody think that it will manifest as ortho and change the color.

MW of EM phosphate is 832. The amount of PO4 is 95/832. 1mg EM phosphate in 1 L would be ~0.12 ppm, I fugure.

 

[jda]

Not sure if I can measure 1mg with my bad tools, but I will try and put some in some fresh saltwater. Just existence is something.

 

[MnFish1]

Here is my question to the chemist type folks... since I need an exact match to compare FTIR, is this even worth doing? I imagine that salts will mess up the infrared, right?

I suppose that we could assume that most of what is left is salts and filler and add salt to the ChemiClean and test it, but it would seem that the types matter, right?

Is this as far as I go? Is there any other tests that can be done on the substances?

Are there any known FTIR or NMR of different antibiotics that we can compare ChemiClean to if I get few graphs and the raw data?

@Randy Holmes-Farley
@taricha
@Dan_P

FWIW - I was able to get some doxycycline and amoxicillin for fish treatment from a friend and they did not smell like these three. That is as good as NMR, right? If anybody has used ChemiClean or any of these other EM products, they really have a distinct smell. Those others also do not reported to make the skimmer go crazy like EM does, but I did not test them. Maybe I can ask @Jay Hemdal if remembers any skimmers overflowing if he ever treated with other antibiotics other than EM.

Ok - I have to go and do my water change and put some GAC on this tank.

Skimmers overflow with tetracycline, maracyn, and many other antibiotics - depending on concentration. The way to see whether Chemiclean contains erythromycin is to do a chemical analysis IMHO

 

[taricha]

So, dissolve some Chemiclean in fresh saltwater and measure PO4?

I'm thinking since chemiclean says "contains no phosphates" it probably doesn't put a bunch of PO4 in the water.

Not sure if I can measure 1mg with my bad tools, but I will try and put some in some fresh saltwater. Just existence is something.

rec'd dose of API EM is 1 pack per 10 gal = 200mg EM / 40L = 5mg/L.
Based on Dan's math above doing a recommended dose gets you ~0.6ppm PO4.
So I'd like to just see what 1 rec'd dose of each does to PO4.

 

[jda]

All that I can test for is ortho. If the bind is stable and strong, it might never show anything on the Hannah.

 

[Dan_P]

Not sure if I can measure 1mg with my bad tools, but I will try and put some in some fresh saltwater. Just existence is something.

How about 100 mg in 100 mL then dilute 1 mL of this 1000 ppm solution to 1000 mL? I am being fussy to get data to distinguish (maybe) between PO4 as an excipient vs as a stoichiometric amount.

 

[jda]

They are way different. ChemiClean tested a few ppb above the control whereas the API and Fritz were so blue that my meter flashed 200.

 

[Dan_P]

They are way different. ChemiClean tested a few ppb above the control whereas the API and Fritz were so blue that my meter flashed 200.

Educated guess then is ChemiClean still using the estolate (lauryl sulfate) salt and others are phosphate salt.