SPS Healthy & Colorful but Not Growing, Zoas Partially Closed - Ca, Mg, Alk Barely Decline. Why?

[EMeyer]

Established terms? Perhaps you didn't read my post to Randy. If not everyone understands the actual difference between the terms then of what use is it to use those terms. Clearly even you are confused by the term alkalinity but you continue to use it imprecisely conveying incorrect meaning with it. I highly suspect the you don't have a clear understanding of the terms carbonate and bicarbonate as well.

You refuse to use the long established terms, try to redefine alkalinity as something else other than the standard textbook meaning, and then conclude that I don't have a clear understanding of what carbonate and bicarbonate are?

I'm not sure how I can clarify this any further for you, so I think I'll bow out. I'll just leave the reader with a general suggestion that when you encounter statements on a forum that contradict those in textbooks, you're safer going with the textbooks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also you might want to note that I accurately predicted and then solved the OP's problem.

Which problem was that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow! Without even allowing me to present my arguments you have formed your conclusion. How very scientific of you. You are what I have come to believe you are.

I'm not stopping you from presenting anything. I never made any suggestion you not present your arguments. I only said I did not want to move the entire discussion to another thread.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So your eyes and brain are useless tools, got it. I have only one point to make to you. If bicarbonate is so good for hard coral growth then why bother with higher PH why not just flood the tank with bicarbonate. Also why are the environmentalists screaming about ocean acidfication that seems counter-intuitive.

Correct. Eyes and brains alone are useless to distinguish between bicarbonate and carbonate uptake by corals.

i'm very interested in how you claim to have done so. It is among the simplest ideas in coral reef keeping, and among the most difficult to actually answer.

The only way I know of to do it involves molecular level analysis of the membrane transporters present in corals, and potentially selectivily inhibiting them to see what the effects are. No eyes and brains alone can do such experiments. That is a huge undertaking.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unfortunately I can't ignore you, but rest assured I won't be responding to anything that you say. It seems that you are more interested in how smart you appear to other people than actual investigation and discovery (the root of the scientific process). Good luck with your aquarium.

I'm certainly interested in actual investigation and discovery (as an aside, that's actually my professional title, VP, Discovery") lol

 

[Scorpius]

Lock er down.

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm certainly interested in actual investigation and discovery (as an aside, that's actually my professional title, VP, Discovery") lol

Since I am unable to DM directly then I guess this has to be public. Here is what I tried to DM you with

This is quickly devolving. What I said on the thread I meant. I won't be responding or replying to you. You can rest assured that I will never interfere and counter anything that you say in the future.

You are a moderator and having been a moderator (on a singing forum) I know that soon I will be banned. I would like to avoid that. So this is my attempt to call a truce, If you are willing.

I will not stand down from what I know to be correct, but I will as stated above never respond or challenge you in any way. If this is acceptable to you then that would be good we can move on.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since I am unable to DM directly then I guess this has to be public. Here is what I tried to DM you with

This is quickly devolving. What I said on the thread I meant. I won't be responding or replying to you. You can rest assured that I will never interfere and counter anything that you say in the future.

You are a moderator and having been a moderator (on a singing forum) I know that soon I will be banned. I would like to avoid that. So this is my attempt to call a truce, If you are willing.

I will not stand down from what I know to be correct, but I will as stated above never respond or challenge you in any way. If this is acceptable to you then that would be good we can move on.

We do not ban people for disagreeing or challenging others. Singers must be a rough bunch.

I welcome opposing ideas and viewpoints. I certainly agree that is how science functions. And since I am responsible for this forum being maintained as a useful tool, I will always challenging anything I think is incorrect. If I leave it here unchallenged, it gets an implicit "well, I read it on the Reef2Reef chemistry forum", and if it is not correct, that brings down the utility of the tool.

 

[HuduVudu]

We do not ban people for disagreeing or challenging others.

That seems like a good policy and unique for forums.

I am not sure at this point what it is that is being debated. The OP poster had a problem with what he termed as slow growing corals. He also noted that his alk had not changed for some period of time and at times his actual alkalinity was rising. He also noted that this was his second post on the subject (his first made in Jan). I correctly diagnosed that there was an over abundance of CO2 in his house (because I live in a similar climate as he does). He opened his windows and his PH went up and his alkalinity dropped. He then added a CO2 scrubber as a possible solution for the elevated CO2. This further accelerated the trend of advancing PH and depressing the alkalinity. This was as I predicted. I then provided next steps on what would happen and possible solutions for how to solve the next problems that he would face. Also when the PH started to move into questionable territory I made some suggestions on how he might insure that his PH probe might be tested for accuracy. The OP is currently waiting for the equipment suggestions that I made to arrive. That I have to summarize this is incredibly frustrating for me. The thread tells the tale but no one seems willing to follow the story.

I am not sure why you think that I have somehow I lead the OP astray. I am also unsure why you have taken such great interest in this thread. Early on you posted and then moved on, leaving the OP on his own. I have not lead the OP astray in fact I have provided him answers that work and an array of solutions to try. Why would you feel the need to challenge that?

I have had reef 2 reef come up many times in searches and I do not think that you or reef 2 reef either endorse or oppose anything that is posted here on this board. I don't know why you would think or say that you are somehow responsible for what other people post implicit or otherwise.

I would hope that the OP would continue to post so that maybe he might get his problem fully solved, but the animus and general epeenery has made his otherwise innocuous post toxic. I find that to be just sad.

I am not going to post my thoughts on carbonate vs. bicarbonate here because even though they are what drives my suggestions and advice they are an utter distraction to this thread.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That seems like a good policy and unique for forums.

I am not sure at this point what it is that is being debated. The OP poster had a problem with what he termed as slow growing corals. He also noted that his alk had not changed for some period of time and at times his actual alkalinity was rising. He also noted that this was his second post on the subject (his first made in Jan). I correctly diagnosed that there was an over abundance of CO2 in his house (because I live in a similar climate as he does). He opened his windows and his PH went up and his alkalinity dropped. He then added a CO2 scrubber as a possible solution for the elevated CO2. This further accelerated the trend of advancing PH and depressing the alkalinity. This was as I predicted. I then provided next steps on what would happen and possible solutions for how to solve the next problems that he would face. Also when the PH started to move into questionable territory I made some suggestions on how he might insure that his PH probe might be tested for accuracy. The OP is currently waiting for the equipment suggestions that I made to arrive. That I have to summarize this is incredibly frustrating for me. The thread tells the tale but no one seems willing to follow the story.

Alkalinity consumption by corals and also by abiotic precipitation increase as pH rises. The fact that his pH was already 8.0 to 8.3 in his first post does not indicate to me that there is an excessive CO2 problem that is harming corals, nor does the increased alk consumption with pH is raised mean corals are taking it up (although it might).

I personally do not think that diagnosing his pH 8.0 to 8.3 pH as the "reason" his corals are not growing is a correct diagnoses, but that statement is an opinion, not a fact. What is a simple fact is that lots of folks with pH lower than his and have no issues with coral growth.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am also unsure why you have taken such great interest in this thread.

I attempt to answer all threads in this forum. Occasionally I do not have time to hit every one, and sometimes others answer it and my responding would be redundant.

In this specific case, he seems to have gotten the impression that his issue is low pH, and I don't agree that is likely, so i responded as soon as I realized that his take away was mostly to raise pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have had reef 2 reef come up many times in searches and I do not think that you or reef 2 reef either endorse or oppose anything that is posted here on this board.

i have no interest or ability to make every forum at Reef2Reef like the chemistry forum. I hope that the chemistry forum is the best reef chemistry forum around, and I strive to maintain it that way.

That is why i spend so much time on it, and I think it is why a number of other chemists also participate regularly here. It is a place to have regular chemistry discussions (like how to raise alkalinity) as well as far more sophisticated discussions (like what might be interfering with ICP analysis, how to use a kit for uses it is not intended for, etc.).

It is my personal goal to make every thread in the chemistry forum have as accurate of an answer(s) as possible, even if the best we can do is "we don't know". Sometimes I provide an answer, sometimes others do, and sometimes we have a lengthy discussion when answers are not clear cut or not known at all. Folks can read the whole discussion and decide how to use the info as the case may be.

 

[melanotaenia]

I would agree with Randy; I mentioned how new the tank is (for SPS specifically), and that SPS really need established reefs to start putting out serious growth. I still firmly believe that this is not a problem of pH, it is a problem of not being patient enough when it comes to growth of hard corals.

 

[HuduVudu]

Alkalinity consumption by corals and also by abiotic precipitation increase as pH rises. The fact that his pH was already 8.0 to 8.3 in his first post does not indicate to me that there is an excessive CO2 problem that is harming corals, nor does the increased alk consumption with pH is raised mean corals are taking it up (although it might).

I personally do not think that diagnosing his pH 8.0 to 8.3 pH as the "reason" his corals are not growing is a correct diagnoses, but that statement is an opinion, not a fact. What is a simple fact is that lots of folks with pH lower than his and have no issues with coral growth.

You won't read the thread, you won't read my post. There can be no debate here. You are simply talking at me. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by doing that, but it is condescending to say the least. I choose my words carefully because precision of meaning is essential in good communication. :sigh:

I want to quit posting and probably should but seeing the utter misrepresentation of what I am saying is infuriating. I am going to try to be done with one-sided conversation, because nothing good will come of it.

You have the answers Randy ... you help the poor guy out, if you can find time in your busy schedule for it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You won't read the thread, you won't read my post. There can be no debate here. You are simply talking at me. I don't know what you hope to accomplish by doing that, but it is condescending to say the least. I choose my words carefully because precision of meaning is essential in good communication. :sigh:

I want to quit posting and probably should but seeing the utter misrepresentation of what I am saying is infuriating. I am going to try to be done with one-sided conversation, because nothing good will come of it.

You have the answers Randy ... you help the poor guy out, if you can find time in your busy schedule for it.

You may choose your words carefully. but that does not make them accurate.

You posted this sentence:

" Bicarbonate is illusory and can go back to CO2 quickly making it unavailable, thus making it hard to determine exactly what our Alk is. "

That is the sort of incorrect information that is misleading the OP, and driving him to inappropriate responses.

 

[HuduVudu]

" Bicarbonate is illusory and can go back to CO2 quickly making it unavailable, thus making it hard to determine exactly what our Alk is. "

Alkalinity consumption by corals and also by abiotic precipitation increase as pH rises.

It seems that both of us are using the term Alk in place of carbonate & bicarbonate because this is the only way to test for them. We can't determine in a simple Alk test what is the carbonate concentration nor what the bicarbonate concentration is. I provided a mental short cut to help facilitate understanding. My statement is false in that the Alk will simply change when bicarbonate is added or removed. A better statement is "Alkalinity tests used in the aquarium hobby measure carbonate and bicarbonate and a bunch of stuff that isn't really relevant to the target we are testing for. Bicarbonate is a function of (in this case) atmospheric CO2 and can therefore change constantly where as carbonate is more stable and less likely to fluctuate, thus making it difficult to determine either ones concentration in an Alk test, but knowing that carbonate is the more stable of the two."

That you picked out my attempt to explain to a layperson an idea and then tout that as a lack of precision of words is disingenuous.

I really really tire of this. I am not even bothering pointing out your constant straw mans, and you keep *** for tatting me. What information here is so wrong that you are trying to correct? That lowering CO2 saturation of a water column will remove bicarbonate from an Alk test?

At this point I don't think anything is being accomplished, and I guess I have to let you continue to smear me because this going absolutely no where.

You win Randy. You have a bigger epeen than me. Congratulations on your victory.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bicarbonate is a function of (in this case) atmospheric CO2 and can therefore change constantly where as carbonate is more stable and less likely to fluctuate, thus making it difficult to determine either ones concentration in an Alk test, but knowing that carbonate is the more stable of the two."

That is just incorrect.

Carbonate is not more stable with pH than is bicarbonate. In fact, carbonate is much less stable in any reasonable way of discussing stability.

The table below is from the link I posted earlier. It shows that at a fixed alkalinity, a pH change from, say, 7.9 to 8.3 causes a 10% drop in bicarbonate and a 230% increase in carbonate.

Which is more stable?

Alkalinity stability? pH stability? Are they even different?

It is currently the dogma of the reef aquarium hobby to say that alkalinity stability is very important for SPS corals, and that pH is not. Often, the very idea of someone trying to optimize pH is called “chasing numbers” as if that statement by itself shows it to be foolish. Since I have...

www.reef2reef.com

Table 1. Bicarbonate and Carbonate as a function of pH in seawater with total alkalinity of 8 dKH. Bicarbonate delta is the percentage difference in bicarbonate for each 0.1 pH unit change.

pH	HCO3- (dKH)	CO3— (dKH)	Bicarbonate Delta
7.60	7.54	0.28
7.65	7.52	0.31	1.80
7.70	7.49	0.35	2.00
7.75	7.46	0.39	2.22
7.80	7.42	0.44	2.47
7.85	7.37	0.49	2.74
7.90	7.31	0.54	3.03
7.95	7.25	0.61	3.36
8.00	7.18	0.67	3.71
8.05	7.10	0.75	4.09
8.10	7.01	0.83	4.50
8.15	6.92	0.92	4.95
8.20	6.81	1.01	5.42
8.25	6.70	1.12	5.93
8.30	6.57	1.23	6.47
8.35	6.44	1.35	7.05
8.40	6.29	1.48	7.66
8.45	6.13	1.62	8.29
8.50	5.97	1.77	8.95
8.55	5.79	1.93	9.64
8.60	5.60	2.09	10.34