Should I be dosing trace elements?

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hey guys, so i have a concern that my salt mix almost certainly isn't providing all the necessary trace elements due to it never fully mixing. I use Julian Sprungs Accurasea1 salt (the small packs) for both my nanos which i really like due to the avoidance of settling concerns with buckets, the good price and availability here, as well as the fact that each packet mixes to the perfect amount for water changes. (That's why I'm trying to avoid switching salt mixes which most people would see as the easiest option.) I haven't had an ICP test due to the price and although my corals are doing ok, i feel they could be doing better so i was considering dosing this Brightwell Replenish product in the below pic but could this do more harm than good without knowing for sure if/what I'm deficient in? I do think with the residue left behind after mixing the salt for hours there's a good chance not all the trace elements are mixed but again should i just hold off for now? Thoughts?

 

[Duffer]

Personally I wouldn’t dose anything without a icp test to let you know if you are in need of trace elements. If you are ok on them you can overdose and cause more harm than good

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Mixing aside, there's very little chance that any salt water (even NSW) can maintain NSW levels of certain trace elements unless you do massive water changes (like 50% daily). That is because some trace elements are consumed rapidly.

What folks strangely disregard is that foods are likely a far bigger source of many of these elements than are water changes.

That said, foods often do not add enough to maintain NSW ion levels of all trace elements.

The underlying and unknown question is how low can these elements (such as iron and manganese) get before become a problem for an organism you want to keep.

IMO, a trace element additive is a fine thing to experiment with. I'd be sure to get one with both iron and manganese. I think Tropic Marin A and K may be a good one to experiment with.

 

[taricha]

I did Red Sea Trace pack. It has Parts a b c and d.
I saw measurable and visible changes dosing part C (the one with Fe, Mn etc)
But saw no changes with part A (I, Br, F) or with part B (K, B).
I never got to part D that has weird stuff like gold in it.
The caveat is that I was looking for Trace element limitations, so I was intentionally running my system in a way that I expected Trace elements to be depleted. I did very little water changes, and fed foods that I thought would be not very enriched, like mysis, brine shrimp and cheap fish flake.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I did Red Sea Trace pack. It has Parts a b c and d.
I saw measurable and visible changes dosing part C (the one with Fe, Mn etc)
But saw no changes with part A (I, Br, F) or with part B (K, B).
I never got to part D that has weird stuff like gold in it.
The caveat is that I was looking for Trace element limitations, so I was intentionally running my system in a way that I expected Trace elements to be depleted. I did very little water changes, and fed foods that I thought would be not very enriched, like mysis, brine shrimp and cheap fish flake.

It's a fishless system right now and I'm only dosing AF Phyto Mix and live phytoplankton right now so there certainly aren't many nutrients going into the system

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Mixing aside, there's very little chance that any salt water (even NSW) can maintain NSW levels of certain trace elements unless you do massive water changes (like 50% daily). That is because some trace elements are consumed rapidly.

What folks strangely disregard is that foods are likely a far bigger source of many of these elements than are water changes.

That said, foods often do not add enough to maintain NSW ion levels of all trace elements.

The underlying and unknown question is how low can these elements (such as iron and manganese) get before become a problem for an organism you want to keep.

IMO, a trace element additive is a fine thing to experiment with. I'd be sure to get one with both iron and manganese. I think Tropic Marin A and K may be a good one to experiment with.

Unfortunately the products you recommended aren't available here...is there an Aquaforest product you know of right off you'd recommend? @taricha recommended a Red Sea product available here but you have to buy the whole 4 bottle pack to get the one bottle with the elements you recommended...would it be inadvisable to dose a product like the one i posted a pic of with all the trace elements included?

 

[OfficeReefer]

Hey guys, so i have a concern that my salt mix almost certainly isn't providing all the necessary trace elements due to it never fully mixing. I use Julian Sprungs Accurasea1 salt (the small packs) for both my nanos which i really like due to the avoidance of settling concerns with buckets, the good price and availability here, as well as the fact that each packet mixes to the perfect amount for water changes. (That's why I'm trying to avoid switching salt mixes which most people would see as the easiest option.) I haven't had an ICP test due to the price and although my corals are doing ok, i feel they could be doing better so i was considering dosing this Brightwell Replenish product in the below pic but could this do more harm than good without knowing for sure if/what I'm deficient in? I do think with the residue left behind after mixing the salt for hours there's a good chance not all the trace elements are mixed but again should i just hold off for now? Thoughts?
View attachment 2953068

Not if you are doing water changes. There are plenty of posts on this and I think there is a recent one by Randy on this vs dosing costs I think too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Unfortunately the products you recommended aren't available here...is there an Aquaforest product you know of right off you'd recommend? @taricha recommended a Red Sea product available here but you have to buy the whole 4 bottle pack to get the one bottle with the elements you recommended...would it be inadvisable to dose a product like the one i posted a pic of with all the trace elements included?

The Aquaforest supplements are likely fine. Strong B seems especially useful to me.

 

[taricha]

Live phyto grown on F/2 media?
If so, my guess is you have significant Trace elements going in this way, and you may not see much benefit from adding a dedicated Trace element product.

 

[chipchipmofo]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Did you ever try to check out the system of Modern Reef closer? They claim to have a "proportional consumption reef keeping system" www.modernreef.eu // https://modernreef.eu/shop/proporti...consumption-reef-keeping-system-rks-4x5l-set/

Would love to hear your thoughts about it..

 

[Miami Reef]

I never got to part D that has weird stuff like gold in it.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Live phyto grown on F/2 media?
If so, my guess is you have significant Trace elements going in this way, and you may not see much benefit from adding a dedicated Trace element product.

Well it's in a commercial bottle and unsure how it's farmed or even how "live" it is...doubtful it's grown with F2...I've gotta admit though my guess that I'm lacking trace elements is completely based on the fact that my salt doesn't mix completely...it's always a little low on calcium and alk when I make a fresh batch so I'd imagine trace elements are also left behind...at this point though is it premature to buy a trace element product when I'm not even certain what it is I may be lacking? I'm just trying to optimize health and growth as i plan to introduce some of the more delicate SPS soon (i do have some SPS now though). It isn't that they're doing badly, i just wonder if they could be doing better...

 

[Miami Reef]

The Aquaforest supplements are likely fine. Strong C seems especially useful to me.

Strong C looks like iodide and fluoride. Why would those seem especially useful to you?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Did you ever try to check out the system of Modern Reef closer? They claim to have a "proportional consumption reef keeping system" www.modernreef.eu // https://modernreef.eu/shop/proporti...consumption-reef-keeping-system-rks-4x5l-set/

Would love to hear your thoughts about it..

I don't know much about how it works for folks, and it may be a great product for some tanks, but its principle is flawed, IMO.

It makes the same assumption that Red Sea does in tying trace element (e.g., iron and manganese) dosing to the demand for alk and calcium, but I do not think that can ever be as balanced as the manufacturer claims:

"Simply dose equal parts from each to keep KH between 7.2-8.5dKH, and all the rest will be proportionally kept."

Suppose you have a mostly soft coral tank, with some hard corals. Will that have the same trace element uptake as an SPS only tank per unit of alk added? No, not even close.

Also, some tanks grow macroalgae and others do not. Some dose organic carbon and some do not. Same issue: uptake of trace elements and no consumption of alk.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Strong C looks like iodide and fluoride. Why would those seem especially useful to you?

Because I wrote the wrong letter. Thanks for the check. I'll change it above as well. I think taricha confused me talking about a different company. lol

I meant strong B:

STRONG B

1 ml of Strong B in 100 l of aquarium water will raise levels:

Iron (Fe) 0,00052 ppm

Manganese (Mn) 0,00024 ppm

Copper (Cu) 0,000075 ppm

Zinc (Zn) 0,000082 ppm

Nickel (Ni) 0,000062 ppm

Chromium (Cr) 0,00023 ppm

 

[Miami Reef]

Because I wrote the wrong letter. Thanks for the check. I'll change it above as well.

I meant strong B:

STRONG B

1 ml of Strong B in 100 l of aquarium water will raise levels:

Iron (Fe) 0,00052 ppm

Manganese (Mn) 0,00024 ppm

Copper (Cu) 0,000075 ppm

Zinc (Zn) 0,000082 ppm

Nickel (Ni) 0,000062 ppm

Chromium (Cr) 0,00023 ppm

OK, that makes more sense. I also believe iron and manganese are very beneficial.

Do you think Nori contains “enough” manganese? I do feed nori to my tangs often, and I think that might supply it.

 

[chipchipmofo]

I don't know much about how it works for folks, and it may be a great product for some tanks, but its principle is flawed, IMO.

It makes the same assumption that Red Sea does in tying trace element (e.g., iron and manganese) dosing to the demand for alk and calcium, but I do not think that can ever be as balanced as the manufacturer claims:

"Simply dose equal parts from each to keep KH between 7.2-8.5dKH, and all the rest will be proportionally kept."

Suppose you have a mostly soft coral tank, with some hard corals. Will that have the same trace element uptake as an SPS only tank per unit of alk added? No, not even close.

Also, some tanks grow macroalgae and others do not. Some dose organic carbon and some do not. Same issue: uptake of trace elements and no consumption of alk.

Sounds reasonable.
The thing is, the tanks they have running look spectacular and acroporas look extremely happy.

So no clue, but alot of people I know changed to this system and they all seem very happy with it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, that makes more sense. I also believe iron and manganese are very beneficial.

Do you think Nori contains “enough” manganese? I do feed nori to my tangs often, and I think that might supply it.

I fed nori regularly, and the one time I got a triton ICP, none was detectable. I didn't dose any. Whatever was there may have been sufficient for organisms, or not.

FWIW, growing macroalgae can strip manganese from the water really fast.

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley - REEFEDITION

Recently, Triton GmbH in Germany has initiated a method of testing many ions at once for a single price. In the US, that service is coordinated by Unique Corals. For $49 they will send you a couple of tubes to collect a tank water sample, and a prepaid mailer to send the sample back to them...

www.reefedition.com

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sounds reasonable.
The thing is, the tanks they have running look spectacular and acroporas look extremely happy.

So no clue, but alot of people I know changed to this system and they all seem very happy with it.

Yes, I cannot usefully comment on its utility in general.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Because I wrote the wrong letter. Thanks for the check. I'll change it above as well. I think taricha confused me talking about a different company. lol

I meant strong B:

STRONG B

1 ml of Strong B in 100 l of aquarium water will raise levels:

Iron (Fe) 0,00052 ppm

Manganese (Mn) 0,00024 ppm

Copper (Cu) 0,000075 ppm

Zinc (Zn) 0,000082 ppm

Nickel (Ni) 0,000062 ppm

Chromium (Cr) 0,00023 ppm

Ok, i think i can get that product here...I've gotta admit though my guess that I'm lacking trace elements is completely based on the fact that my salt doesn't mix completely...it's always a little low on calcium and alk when I make a fresh batch so I'd imagine trace elements are also left behind...at this point though is it premature to buy a trace element product when I'm not even certain what it is I may be lacking? I'm just trying to optimize health and growth as i plan to introduce some of the more delicate SPS soon (i do have some SPS now though). It isn't that they're doing badly, i just wonder if they could be doing better...