Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

[KStatefan]

Sort of, it is 1/3 of the magnesium dose used in my two part. The other 2/3 duplicates the Balling Part C.

Can I apply that to the 5-10% and use 1.7 - 3.3%?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Can you please confirm if this is correct when using the 3 part including Balling Part C)

Yes, that’s correct, as is the reasoning for Balling Part C not meeting all mag demand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can I apply that to the 5-10% and use 1.7 - 3.3%?

the 5-10% is a consumption ratio by ppm. It applies in all cases.

The Balling Part C is an ionic balance effect that only applies when using calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide. It is in addition to the 5-10% mentioned above.

 

[KStatefan]

the 5-10% is a consumption ratio by ppm. It applies in all cases.

The Balling Part C is an ionic balance effect that only applies when using calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide. It is in addition to the 5-10% mentioned above.

This is confusing to me.

So it is 5- 10 % weather you are doing just two part or two part plus part C.

 

[Miami Reef]

It is in addition to the 5-10% mentioned above.

Are you implying that adding balling part C in addition to the 1/3 magnesium for balling part C users will supply more than the 5-10% of the magnesium suggested in the RMM?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is confusing to me.

So it is 5- 10 % weather you are doing just two part or two part plus part C.

The 5-10% ppm of the RMM method simply reflects the consumption of magnesium relative to calcium by the organisms we keep. It applies in any scenario, including kalkwasser only dosing.

The Balling Part C is only ever used with a two part, and only corrects for changes in magnesium and every other ion due to the salinity corrections required due to sodium and chloride accumulating. It does no supplementing to offset consumption.

If you are using a two part consisting of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide, and you correctly choose to use Balling Part C, then you may still need to offset mag consumption unless the additions are small and water changes keep up the mag (and with the excessive levels in some salt mixes, that may be common).

My diy 3 part dosed as directed already does both of these for magnesium, and thus Balling Part C should not just be added on top of that. One needs to scale back my third part to only correct for consumption, and that is done by using 1/3 of the normal amount of my part three, and in a perfect world, using a different recipe for that third part (the 10:1 recipe chloride to sulfate).

 

[Miami Reef]

The 5-10% ppm of the RMM method simply reflects the consumption of magnesium relative to calcium by the organisms we keep. It applies in any scenario, including kalkwasser only dosing.

The Balling Part C is only ever used with a two part, and only corrects for changes in magnesium and every other ion due to the salinity corrections required due to sodium and chloride accumulating. It does no supplementing to offset consumption.

If you are using a two part consisting of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide, and you correctly choose to use Balling Part C, then you may still need to offset mag consumption unless the additions are small and water changes keep up the mag (and with the excessive levels in some salt mixes, that may be common).

My diy 3 part dosed as directed already does both of these for magnesium, and thus Balling Part C should not just be added on top of that. One needs to scale back my third part to only correct for consumption, and that is done by using 1/3 of the normal amount of my part three, and in a perfect world, using a different recipe for that third part (the 10:1 recipe chloride to sulfate).

You couldn’t have said it more clearer! Thank you very much for this. Bookmarking to show future members with the same question.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you implying that adding balling part C in addition to the 1/3 magnesium for balling part C users will supply more than the 5-10% of the magnesium suggested in the RMM?

No, the 1/3 part 3 is already matching the 5-10%. The full part 3, if it is used, is adding well above the 5-10%.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You couldn’t have said it more clearer! Thank you very much for this. Bookmarking to show future members with the same question.

Thx!

 

[KStatefan]

The 5-10% ppm of the RMM method simply reflects the consumption of magnesium relative to calcium by the organisms we keep. It applies in any scenario, including kalkwasser only dosing.

The Balling Part C is only ever used with a two part, and only corrects for changes in magnesium and every other ion due to the salinity corrections required due to sodium and chloride accumulating. It does no supplementing to offset consumption.

If you are using a two part consisting of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide, and you correctly choose to use Balling Part C, then you may still need to offset mag consumption unless the additions are small and water changes keep up the mag (and with the excessive levels in some salt mixes, that may be common).

My diy 3 part dosed as directed already does both of these for magnesium, and thus Balling Part C should not just be added on top of that. One needs to scale back my third part to only correct for consumption, and that is done by using 1/3 of the normal amount of my part three, and in a perfect world, using a different recipe for that third part (the 10:1 recipe chloride to sulfate).

Thanks

That make it easy to update my spreadsheet for my plan when Kalk can not keep up and I start using two part with part C.

 

[Mickey]

Thanks @Miami Reef and @Randy Holmes-Farley for clarifying.

I guess my only remaining question is can I periodically add an appropriate amount of magnesium in one dose to make up for consumption or is it better to actually put it on a daily doser. I'd rather do it manually periodically, say once every two weeks or so, because I already have 4 Neptune DOS (that's 8 heads) in operation and would rather not add another if I don't have to.

 

[Miami Reef]

I guess my only remaining question is can I periodically add an appropriate amount of magnesium in one dose to make up for consumption

In my opinion this is more than fine. That’s how I do it. No issues at all.

 

[Land&Sea]

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example).

Here's the original recipe link (which has a lot more discussion on the details and rationale):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The new recipe is shown below. It has about twice the pH boost of the original recipe (#1) and should be added to a very high flow area. Initial cloudiness (magnesium hydroxide) is expected, but it should disperse and dissolve. If not, stop using it and figure out why.

Alk part

Add 283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of fresh water. It will get quite warm. Make sure it doesn't soften your container. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). BE CAREFUL WITH THIS SOLUTION: IT HAS A pH ABOVE 14. Do not get it in your eyes or on your skin. Keep all reef chemicals, especially this alk part, in a way that children cannot access them.

Calcium part

Dissolve 500 grams (about 2 ½ cups) of calcium chloride dihydrate (such as Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride or ESV calcium chloride; see below for substitutes and sources) in enough water to make 1 gallon of total volume. You can dissolve it in about ½ gallon of water, and then pour that into the 1 gallon container and fill it to the top with more freshwater. This solution has about 37,000 ppm calcium.

Magnesium part

Dissolve Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (3 cups) and magnesium chloride hexahydrate (5 cups) in enough purified freshwater to make 1 gallon total volume. There will likely be a precipitate that forms even if you fully dissolve both ingredients separately. That precipitate is calcium sulfate (calcium as an impurity in the magnesium chloride and sulfate from the Epsom salts). It is fine and appropriate to dose the precipitate along with the remainder of the fluid by shaking it up before dosing.

This solution is added much less frequently or in lower volume than the other two parts. Add 16% as much as the other two parts. Over the time you add 1 gallon of the others, 1 add 610 mL (2 ½ cups) of this solution. You can add it all at once or, preferably, over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example).

Here's the original recipe link (which has a lot more discussion on the details and rationale):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The new recipe is shown below. It has about twice the pH boost of the original recipe (#1) and should be added to a very high flow area. Initial cloudiness (magnesium hydroxide) is expected, but it should disperse and dissolve. If not, stop using it and figure out why.

Alk part

Add 283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of fresh water. It will get quite warm. Make sure it doesn't soften your container. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). BE CAREFUL WITH THIS SOLUTION: IT HAS A pH ABOVE 14. Do not get it in your eyes or on your skin. Keep all reef chemicals, especially this alk part, in a way that children cannot access them.

Calcium part

Dissolve 500 grams (about 2 ½ cups) of calcium chloride dihydrate (such as Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride or ESV calcium chloride; see below for substitutes and sources) in enough water to make 1 gallon of total volume. You can dissolve it in about ½ gallon of water, and then pour that into the 1 gallon container and fill it to the top with more freshwater. This solution has about 37,000 ppm calcium.

Magnesium part

Dissolve Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (3 cups) and magnesium chloride hexahydrate (5 cups) in enough purified freshwater to make 1 gallon total volume. There will likely be a precipitate that forms even if you fully dissolve both ingredients separately. That precipitate is calcium sulfate (calcium as an impurity in the magnesium chloride and sulfate from the Epsom salts). It is fine and appropriate to dose the precipitate along with the remainder of the fluid by shaking it up before dosing.

This solution is added much less frequently or in lower volume than the other two parts. Add 16% as much as the other two parts. Over the time you add 1 gallon of the others, 1 add 610 mL (2 ½ cups) of this solution. You can add it all at once or, preferably, over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

Hi there. I just have a couple questions. They may seem dumb, but I’m AWFUL at anything chemistry related. So…

1. Does the ph boost come from the alk recipe alone, or from using all 3 parts?

2. I have a nano reef (mixed but has become more sps dominant) and so I use TM All-For-Reef, but I’m also dosing Red Sea Foundation B, as I slacked on my weekly testing for about a month, and came to find out the AFR was NOT holding my alk steady when I got a reading on my Hanna checker of 4.3. I triple checked it with 2 other color based kits, and did 2 more Hanna tests just to make sure, and it was actually that low. I was super surprised though as all my corals (including my acros) still looked great and my pH, tho low, was pretty stable, hitting 8.15 at peak and 7.85 at lowest. Since then I’ve installed a soda lime reactor using jorvet, and also running my line from that to the outside. I slowly raised my alk using the Foundation B (manually), and am now holding tight at 8.2dkh. Anyway, my pH is also better now, reaching 8.35 at its peak with lights on…but it still drops to 7.9 within 3-4 hours of the lights turning off. I have a pretty large refugium for this size tank w Chaeto n running lights 20 hours a day, w fuge light turning off right in the middle 4 hours of my peak photo period. Anyway, long story long, when I was dosing my foundation B manually right before lights turned on n right after lights turned off, my ph was hitting close to 8.5 during day and never went below 8.2-8.3 at night. Now that I have it on a dosing pump for more stability dosing every hour 24 hours a day, my ph has lowered again to what I stated above (8.35 peak/7.9 lowest). So, my other questions are
a) can I use your alk recipe alone with my AFR like I do w the foundation B?
b) do u think it will raise my ph and keep it higher like when I was dosing foundation b manually? Or would u recommend going back to just dosing the foundation B manually twice a day? I thought having it on a dosing pump would keep my ph high and more stable annd also keep it from dropping so much at night, but it definitely has not and I don’t understand why.

Sorry for writing a small novel, but this whole thing has me super perplexed, and so I’m just wondering if ur alk recipe would keep my ph higher and more stable (especially at night). Or, if u can maybe just explain to me (in layman’s terms) why my pH was higher and more stable when I dosed twice a day versus having it on the dosing pump now. Any/all info u can provide would be so very much appreciated!! Thanks in advance!

Best regards,
Land

 

[Miami Reef]

1. Does the ph boost come from the alk recipe alone, or from using all 3 parts?

The pH boost comes from the alkalinity solution.

You should use AFR to maintain alkalinity. If you dose other parts from different systems unevenly without testing, you risk elevating one of the foundation elements and not the other.

All for reef increases alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium in a balanced ratio. You should really only focus on alkalinity when dosing AFR. The other parts should naturally be in line.

It’s OK to test calcium, but magnesium tests don’t work, and the AFR will maintain it with no testing needed in your part.

 

[Miami Reef]

If you want a high pH boost, why don’t you consider kalkwasser? It’s a 1 part solution that contains both alkalinity and calcium in a balanced ratio. It has the highest pH boost possible (the same as sodium hydroxide).

You can also switch to the recipe outlined here.

All for reef has a very slight pH decreasing effect.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just to add what Miami wrote, if using AFR and alk is lower than you want, I recommend using more AFR.

 

[Futuretotm]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Thank you for all your input. Two questions for you:

(1) I have been using your #2 recipe (Lye & CaCl from BRS) for a few years now, everything is thriving, my salinity does go up (38ppt at the moment), however I am countering this with daily WC with hypo-saltwater PPT~30ish.

do you think I still need to correct my "ionic imbalance"??


(2) I am switching to briners choice FG CaCl, would I still add 500mg to make 1 gallon of dosing solution?
Please note this mix also contains the following per manufacturer.
Assay, % by weight
Calcium chloride 94.5%
Potassium chloride 2.5%
Sodium chloride 1.6%
Calcium bromide 0.9%
Water 0.5%

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Thank you for all your input. Two questions for you:

(1) I have been using your #2 recipe (Lye & CaCl from BRS) for a few years now, everything is thriving, my salinity does go up (38ppt at the moment), however I am countering this with daily WC with hypo-saltwater PPT~30ish.

do you think I still need to correct my "ionic imbalance"??


(2) I am switching to briners choice FG CaCl, would I still add 500mg to make 1 gallon of dosing solution?
Please note this mix also contains the following per manufacturer.
Assay, % by weight
Calcium chloride 94.5%
Potassium chloride 2.5%
Sodium chloride 1.6%
Calcium bromide 0.9%
Water 0.5%

I do recommend Balling Part C as optimal, but folks have also certainly not used it, in some cases for many years, without apparent issue. Water changes do reduce any concerns, as does that choice of CaCl2 (see below).

Yes, use the same amount of Briners choice and ignore other ingredients. The potassium in it is a clear benefit. In my original recipe, it perfectly balanced out potassium imbalances, and is likely doing a good job at that here.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

Can you mix 1 gallon mix alk that was made with soda ash with a galling of alk that was made with sodium hydroxide? Kind of blend them together?

 

[Miami Reef]

Can you mix 1 gallon mix alk that was made with soda ash with a galling of alk that was made with sodium hydroxide? Kind of blend them together?

Yes. You can mix sodium hydroxide with sodium carbonate (soda ash).