SCTLD last resort treatment

[Nano_Man]

As far as protective equipment never mind antibiotics just for general use on your reef gloves eye protection. I know of one person was close to losing his hand and another lost his sight in one eye through toxins and bacteria infection

 

[jda]

Late to the party, but none of the acropora in Florida are affected by the real SCTLD. While this could be a pathogen or bacteria it is unlikely the true SCTLD as defined that is affecting Florida corals. People have looked and cannot find any SCTLD Cervi nor Palmata in the Atlantic. This last summer, I had a quick talk with some folks at Mote Marine Lab and they saw no reason, so far, to believe that this disease could affect acropora and that some tissue that they sampled from aquariums was not the same pathogen but rather other things already in the aquarium at excess.

I have no doubt that this treatment can stop some tissue loss, I just wonder if it is smart to label it as SCTLD since this diagnosis already has a name, meaning and is not likely the same? ATLS for Aquarium Tissue Loss Syndrome might be better until it can be proven to be the same thing as the forenamed. This is likely a syndrome more than a disease.

I know there has been some scare tactics in the hobby by calling some thing SCTLD to sell products or services, but collectively we should shut the use of this name down, IMO.

 

[Moe K]

I was one to praise the use of antibiotics as it appeared to stop my torch corals mysteriously dying month to month, 1 by 1. That is until it started to happen again. I did a heavy antibiotic bath and a heavy full tank treatment of cipro, amox, and 3x the dose of chemiclean and the pathogens are still present. I sure did see signs of improvement but spoke too soon as it only took a couple months of the issue to return with no new additions to the tank.

I regularly do aquabiomics testing and the pathogens are pretty much the same. I am thinking this visible window into our micro biome is causing us to take drastic measures that are not necessarily helpful long term.

I am taking a hard jump off this antibiotic train. We have grown coral for decades without them and the exploding use of them is starting to concern me more and more. It might not be good for us when animal activists get a whiff of what we have been experimenting with and now more vendors going this route without knowing the long term consequences. Hate to be a party pooper but witnessing the return of the same issue in my own tank and hearing out the warnings of others about the use of meds I am starting to take this a lot more seriously.

Some reading on a study that possibly suggest antibiotics are detrimental to the long term health linked on coral reeftank's thread, post #1,658 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-83
This is especially concerning with regard to vendors adopting this practice at an alarming rate.

There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel though. This could all be a nutritional issue. I am currently trying his concoction with good results. Take a look at post # 1,612 on his thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-81

Who knows though, it could all go downhill again in a couple months and just may need to accept some corals are not meant to be kept long term in a closed system.

 

[sculpin01]

I was one to praise the use of antibiotics as it appeared to stop my torch corals mysteriously dying month to month, 1 by 1. That is until it started to happen again. I did a heavy antibiotic bath and a heavy full tank treatment of cipro, amox, and 3x the dose of chemiclean and the pathogens are still present. I sure did see signs of improvement but spoke too soon as it only took a couple months of the issue to return with no new additions to the tank.

I regularly do aquabiomics testing and the pathogens are pretty much the same. I am thinking this visible window into our micro biome is causing us to take drastic measures that are not necessarily helpful long term.

I am taking a hard jump off this antibiotic train. We have grown coral for decades without them and the exploding use of them is starting to concern me more and more. It might not be good for us when animal activists get a whiff of what we have been experimenting with and now more vendors going this route without knowing the long term consequences. Hate to be a party pooper but witnessing the return of the same issue in my own tank and hearing out the warnings of others about the use of meds I am starting to take this a lot more seriously.

Some reading on a study that possibly suggest antibiotics are detrimental to the long term health linked on coral reeftank's thread, post #1,658 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-83
This is especially concerning with regard to vendors adopting this practice at an alarming rate.

There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel though. This could all be a nutritional issue. I am currently trying his concoction with good results. Take a look at post # 1,612 on his thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-81

Who knows though, it could all go downhill again in a couple months and just may need to accept some corals are not meant to be kept long term in a closed system.

The paper in question is here:

The microbiome of coral surface mucus has a key role in mediating holobiont health and survival upon disturbance - The ISME Journal

Microbes are well-recognized members of the coral holobiont. However, little is known about the short-term dynamics of mucus-associated microbial communities under natural conditions and after disturbances, and how these dynamics relate to the host’s health. Here we examined the natural...

www.nature.com

Important points in this paper include:

1) Corals removed from the wild and kept in captivity as controls bleached and showed signs of distress without antibiotic treatments.
2) Corals treated with antibiotics did well in captivity with no signs of bleaching or ill-health. "Although the full extent of the influence of antibiotics on the holobiont’s fitness remains elusive, no visual cues of a negative impact on coral health were noted."
3) Introduction of corals treated with antibiotics back onto the reef led to attack by a host of naturally occurring pathologic bacteria, leading to coral death. The reason appears to be antibiotic disturbance of the specific microbiome needed to survive in nature. This is synonymous to if you exposed an immunocompromised individual (the antibiotic treated coral) to normal bacteria fauna. Coral immune systems are closely linked to their surface microbiome. As noted above, antibiotic treatment led to improved survival in captivity, so the issue here is reintroduction to the wild as much as it is the antibiotic treatment.
4) Antibiotic treated corals were only kept in captivity for 8 days, which did not allow for restructuring of their microbiomes.
5) I can't find a clear mention of what antibiotics were used, although I may have missed it.

In regards to your concerns: what pathogens are affecting your tank? Also, have you tried addition of probiotic bacteria, such as the Prodibio Bio Digest?

 

[MnFish1]

I was one to praise the use of antibiotics as it appeared to stop my torch corals mysteriously dying month to month, 1 by 1. That is until it started to happen again. I did a heavy antibiotic bath and a heavy full tank treatment of cipro, amox, and 3x the dose of chemiclean and the pathogens are still present. I sure did see signs of improvement but spoke too soon as it only took a couple months of the issue to return with no new additions to the tank.

I regularly do aquabiomics testing and the pathogens are pretty much the same. I am thinking this visible window into our micro biome is causing us to take drastic measures that are not necessarily helpful long term.

I am taking a hard jump off this antibiotic train. We have grown coral for decades without them and the exploding use of them is starting to concern me more and more. It might not be good for us when animal activists get a whiff of what we have been experimenting with and now more vendors going this route without knowing the long term consequences. Hate to be a party pooper but witnessing the return of the same issue in my own tank and hearing out the warnings of others about the use of meds I am starting to take this a lot more seriously.

Some reading on a study that possibly suggest antibiotics are detrimental to the long term health linked on coral reeftank's thread, post #1,658 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-83
This is especially concerning with regard to vendors adopting this practice at an alarming rate.

There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel though. This could all be a nutritional issue. I am currently trying his concoction with good results. Take a look at post # 1,612 on his thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-81

Who knows though, it could all go downhill again in a couple months and just may need to accept some corals are not meant to be kept long term in a closed system.

You summarized it nicely.

 

[jda]

All that you probably need to know is that since corals started getting imported in late 1960 and 1970, you never needed to use antibiotics on them. Now, somehow you do? Either we suck more at this now, or is still not needed. Biology can chemistry have not changed in our lifetimes. I know that the modern husbandry techniques of adding waste products to tanks, limiting spectrum and intensity to the only thing that FOR SURE gives corals energy (the lights) and less diverse ecosystems have led to less success with corals, but doesn't it make more sense to fix some of these things than try more things that were never needed before?

I would caution anybody not to believe any single study nor what vendors do. Vendors have different goals, husbandry and techniques than hobbyists - many will tell you that they are bad hobbyists. Instead look at people who have had decade-plus success keeping what you want to keep. Are there decade plus reefers who all of a sudden turned to antibiotics - I don't know the answer... just curious. Not a single person in my circle thinks that this is a good idea and we all never lost corals when wild imports were more common than today. My death rate of about 10% when importing wild acropora was a bit better than typical, but nobody used antibiotics on these... you just lost some.

I am sure that you all have seen the sales stop on aquarium-use medications from the larger supply companies. This was mostly because people would buy fish amox and circumvent a Rx or other FDA guidelines (prepper sites sold a lot of these) - you do not currently need a Rx to buy ornamental fish meds. The current trend in using anti fungals in reef tanks for algae, cipro for corals, tylosin for cyano, etc. is under investigation too. If you think that these kind of treatments are helpful, you might not be able to get these drugs in a few years - this is likely no issue since many don't need them at all, but something in your system will have to change. Drug resistant strains of many pathogens are increasing and people are looking everywhere for reasons why.

 

[Moe K]

December 2023

March 2024

Vibrio is actually higher. Yes the planktotellea decreased but is still there. I did do the KFC full tank treatment and that is what I thought is a very high dose of antibiotics. Figured I hit it hard and reduce risks and hopefully non of it survives. Now thinking back I don't think that's possible as it would probably wreak havoc on most your micro biome and crash the tank but that doesn't happen.

My point is the same pathogens are still there and if the dosage I did didn't do the trick, I don't think any amount of antibiotics with in "safe limits" will eliminate the pathogens detected.

After treatment I dosed heavy for one week of Fauna Marin Bacto Therapy. The 2nd week heavy dosing of Fritzym 9.

I have one more test left and will wait a couple of months doing the CRT concoction (of only using zeobak and AF pro bio s) and will try and report back the results. Pretty sure the pathogens will still be there, the question is will I see any more infected corals.

 

[sculpin01]

December 2023

March 2024

Vibrio is actually higher. Yes the planktotellea decreased but is still there. I did do the KFC full tank treatment and that is what I thought is a very high dose of antibiotics. Figured I hit it hard and reduce risks and hopefully non of it survives. Now thinking back I don't think that's possible as it would probably wreak havoc on most your micro biome and crash the tank but that doesn't happen.

My point is the same pathogens are still there and if the dosage I did didn't do the trick, I don't think any amount of antibiotics with in "safe limits" will eliminate the pathogens detected.

After treatment I dosed heavy for one week of Fauna Marin Bacto Therapy. The 2nd week heavy dosing of Fritzym 9.

I have one more test left and will wait a couple of months doing the CRT concoction (of only using zeobak and AF pro bio s) and will try and report back the results. Pretty sure the pathogens will still be there, the question is will I see any more infected corals.

Definitely try the probiotic approach and report back. Some people have had additional success with the purple sulfur bacteria.

My big system was started with Florida live rock and had Planktotella (which devastated the coral population, especially LPS). I treated with ciprofloxacin 1 mg/gallon/day at lights off for 10 days. My Aquabiomics tests since then have shown no Planktotella and no corals demonstrate the previous signs of disease.

 

[Tuna Melt]

December 2023

March 2024

Vibrio is actually higher. Yes the planktotellea decreased but is still there. I did do the KFC full tank treatment and that is what I thought is a very high dose of antibiotics. Figured I hit it hard and reduce risks and hopefully non of it survives. Now thinking back I don't think that's possible as it would probably wreak havoc on most your micro biome and crash the tank but that doesn't happen.

My point is the same pathogens are still there and if the dosage I did didn't do the trick, I don't think any amount of antibiotics with in "safe limits" will eliminate the pathogens detected.

After treatment I dosed heavy for one week of Fauna Marin Bacto Therapy. The 2nd week heavy dosing of Fritzym 9.

I have one more test left and will wait a couple of months doing the CRT concoction (of only using zeobak and AF pro bio s) and will try and report back the results. Pretty sure the pathogens will still be there, the question is will I see any more infected corals.

I also am doing a complete 180 on this topic. I think it has quite a bit to do with the prevalence of dry rock today. Check out these articles https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/

Revisiting my Elos tank after 18 months | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Sometimes we just aren’t as smart as we think we are. I am using the “royal we” as I know I am definitely not as smart as I think I am a lot of the tie, especially when it comes to this hobby.

reefbuilders.com

Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock

Studying the effects of live rock in a newly established aquarium shows that high-quality live rock promotes the rapid establishment of an effective biological filter and a microbial community similar to those found in mature reef tanks.

www.reef2reef.com

I do monthly ICP tests and keep a close eye on my parameters. I can grow torches, gonis, and durasa clams, but easy-pezey SPS like digitata's keel over and die in my tank. When I added a large batch of easy SPS it got so bad that it spread to other corals that were healthy and growing for months. I thought it was a pathogen, so I hit the tank with Cipro, which helped, but months later SPS are still necrossing in a similar fashion. After much thought and research I am going the other way. More diversity, more bacteria, I'm adding live reef rubble from KP aquatics, and trying to get some live sand from aquabiomics (they canceled my order with no heads up, that company sucks but its the only live sand packaged in water that I can find available atm).

 

[Moe K]

It seems hit or miss. I actually did full tank cipro treatment twice. The first time when the very first torch got sick. All the torches fluffed up after treatment and it seemed all was good. Months down the road and 3 more torches died. The second time was when cipro was mixed with the KFC method. It just seems like a blind guessing game and not worth the potential future risks.

I did notice when I decided to absolutely do no more antibiotics, I dipped the last sick torch in only PolypLab Reef Primer after the illness re-immerged. It actually got better and survived another week or so where it was showing signs of certain death in at least 24-48 hours in my experience. So it did help but was not enough. When it showed small signs of improvement just by a reef primer dip I really began inspecting for pests but did not find any at all. I dipped it again but it seemed to have gotten too weak to survive the stress. Nothing was in the dip cup either. The small sign of improvement and the small life extension it got after the dip is showing me that I should absolutely dip everything that goes in my future tanks with reef primer specifically. Not a cure at all but hopefully one step closer to prevention. The only problem I see is if the pathogens are internal to the coral. That will probably make things near impossible to fix. Then my hope is better coral nutrition to give it a better fighting chance to resist the pathogen on its own.

Going back to this article Chemical and genomic characterization of a potential probiotic treatment for stony coral tissue loss disease

"The rise of antibiotic-resistant pathogens could render the sole treatment for SCTLD useless and leave managers without a direct mitigation tool. In addition, like most antibiotics, amoxicillin does not provide lasting protection and needs to be repeatedly administered if the initial treatment fails or if the coral is reinfected, which has been observed with SCTLD11,12,13. The latter is concerning, because the agents responsible for SCTLD are unidentified and waterborne;7 therefore, they are present in the environment and capable of reinfecting hosts. Cumulatively, these concerns highlight the need for additional treatment or prevention strategies for SCTLD. One such alternative is the use of beneficial microorganisms, e.g., probiotics, as a potential treatment for coral diseases16."
The most concerning part IMO. Its not a cure, just a band aide as many of us are witnessing now. Only a matter of time until we mutate these pathogens if not already out there in some ones tank. And we all know how easily unseen pests spread through the hobby. I reaaaaally wished this was the answer to a one shot and done cure but it appears not the case at all.

"McH1-7 is the most chemically characterized coral probiotic that is an effective prophylactic and direct treatment for the destructive SCTLD as well as a potential alternative to antibiotic use."
From my unprofessional understanding (an engineer not a biologist) McH1-7 they speak of is derived from Pseudoalteromonas sp. F-420. My aquabiomics test does show Pseudoalteromonadaceae. Is that the same thing or very similar? If so could someone isolate that strain and culture it. It is in my test but very little.

I think the key here is finding the right strains of bacteria similar to that study, culturing it, then "feeding" it to the coral. Also from my understanding each coral has its own unique localized microbiome and just administering new bacteria is great, it seems they need to ingest it to experience the benefits of improving their personalized microbiome.

Man I'm really going down a rabbit hole lately

 

[Tuna Melt]

It seems hit or miss. I actually did full tank cipro treatment twice. The first time when the very first torch got sick. All the torches fluffed up after treatment and it seemed all was good. Months down the road and 3 more torches died. The second time was when cipro was mixed with the KFC method. It just seems like a blind guessing game and not worth the potential future risks.

I did notice when I decided to absolutely do no more antibiotics, I dipped the last sick torch in only PolypLab Reef Primer after the illness re-immerged. It actually got better and survived another week or so where it was showing signs of certain death in at least 24-48 hours in my experience. So it did help but was not enough. When it showed small signs of improvement just by a reef primer dip I really began inspecting for pests but did not find any at all. I dipped it again but it seemed to have gotten too weak to survive the stress. Nothing was in the dip cup either. The small sign of improvement and the small life extension it got after the dip is showing me that I should absolutely dip everything that goes in my future tanks with reef primer specifically. Not a cure at all but hopefully one step closer to prevention. The only problem I see is if the pathogens are internal to the coral. That will probably make things near impossible to fix. Then my hope is better coral nutrition to give it a better fighting chance to resist the pathogen on its own.

Going back to this article Chemical and genomic characterization of a potential probiotic treatment for stony coral tissue loss disease

"The rise of antibiotic-resistant pathogens could render the sole treatment for SCTLD useless and leave managers without a direct mitigation tool. In addition, like most antibiotics, amoxicillin does not provide lasting protection and needs to be repeatedly administered if the initial treatment fails or if the coral is reinfected, which has been observed with SCTLD11,12,13. The latter is concerning, because the agents responsible for SCTLD are unidentified and waterborne;7 therefore, they are present in the environment and capable of reinfecting hosts. Cumulatively, these concerns highlight the need for additional treatment or prevention strategies for SCTLD. One such alternative is the use of beneficial microorganisms, e.g., probiotics, as a potential treatment for coral diseases16."
The most concerning part IMO. Its not a cure, just a band aide as many of us are witnessing now. Only a matter of time until we mutate these pathogens if not already out there in some ones tank. And we all know how easily unseen pests spread through the hobby. I reaaaaally wished this was the answer to a one shot and done cure but it appears not the case at all.

"McH1-7 is the most chemically characterized coral probiotic that is an effective prophylactic and direct treatment for the destructive SCTLD as well as a potential alternative to antibiotic use."
From my unprofessional understanding (an engineer not a biologist) McH1-7 they speak of is derived from Pseudoalteromonas sp. F-420. My aquabiomics test does show Pseudoalteromonadaceae. Is that the same thing or very similar? If so could someone isolate that strain and culture it. It is in my test but very little.

I think the key here is finding the right strains of bacteria similar to that study, culturing it, then "feeding" it to the coral. Also from my understanding each coral has its own unique localized microbiome and just administering new bacteria is great, it seems they need to ingest it to experience the benefits of improving their personalized microbiome.

Man I'm really going down a rabbit hole lately

biologist are already experimenting with this concept though not with McH1-7 to my knowledge

Marine probiotics: increasing coral resistance to bleaching through microbiome manipulation - The ISME Journal

Although the early coral reef-bleaching warning system (NOAA/USA) is established, there is no feasible treatment that can minimize temperature bleaching and/or disease impacts on corals in the field. Here, we present the first attempts to extrapolate the widespread and well-established use of...

www.nature.com

 

[sculpin01]

Very interesting discussions but I will ask one question: for those of you that treated Planktotella with ciprofloxacin, what regimen did you use (dosage, for how long, at what time of day, did you remove carbon/UV/ozone)?

Unfortunately, Pseudoalteromonas is a genus with multiple species. Having Pseudoalteromonas on your Aquabiomics report shows excellent diversity but it doesn't indicate that increasing their prevalence will provide any specific benefit.

 

[Moe K]

I treated 3 times actually. The first time was a low dose every other night at .25mg per gallon for 6 days. 2nd time was 1mg per gallon for 5 days. 3rd time was 1mg per gallon along with 1mg per gallon ammox and 3x the recommended dose of chemiclean dosed for 3 nights in a row.

Every dose was done with lights off and meds were stored in the dark in the fridge. Mixed with tank water with a magnetic stirrer for at least 30 minutes. Carbon removed and also protein skimmer and UV shut off during treatment. After treatments different brand bacteria bottles were used.

I usually feed Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet or Frozen Mysis shrimp. Could it be likely it is just re-introduced with the frozen food?

 

[sculpin01]

I treated 3 times actually. The first time was a low dose every other night at .25mg per gallon for 6 days. 2nd time was 1mg per gallon for 5 days. 3rd time was 1mg per gallon along with 1mg per gallon ammox and 3x the recommended dose of chemiclean dosed for 3 nights in a row.

Every dose was done with lights off and meds were stored in the dark in the fridge. Mixed with tank water with a magnetic stirrer for at least 30 minutes. Carbon removed and also protein skimmer and UV shut off during treatment. After treatments different brand bacteria bottles were used.

I usually feed Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet or Frozen Mysis shrimp. Could it be likely it is just re-introduced with the frozen food?

I favor prolonged dosing over short interval and there is a host of medical literature that supports that. Your first attempt may have created resistance by using an insufficient dose for only three days of actual treatment. Standard treatment in medicine is 7-10 days with daily administration and marine bacteria are unlikely to vary from that standard.

I believe that the idea of every other day treatment comes from the use of oxolinic acid to treat pond fish. Dosing of oxolinic acid for pond diseases is done every other day, likely to avoid pond hypoxia from bacterial death. In addition, oxolinic acid in pond water breaks down much slower than ciprofloxacin does under reef aquarium conditions.

 

[sculpin01]

The frozen food idea came from Paletta if I am not mistaken, and I have yet to see any data supporting that. I believe his concern was Arcobacter 1103 or Vibrio. Without question, frozen food likely carries a host of bacteria due to its very nature of being previously alive.

 

[Moe K]

I favor prolonged dosing over short interval and there is a host of medical literature that supports that. Your first attempt may have created resistance by using an insufficient dose for only three days of actual treatment. Standard treatment in medicine is 7-10 days with daily administration and marine bacteria are unlikely to vary from that standard.

I believe that the idea of every other day treatment comes from the use of oxolinic acid to treat pond fish. Dosing of oxolinic acid for pond diseases is done every other day, likely to avoid pond hypoxia from bacterial death. In addition, oxolinic acid in pond water breaks down much slower than ciprofloxacin does under reef aquarium conditions.

Thank you, this is helpful information. This appears to be another factor in part of the problem. Incorrect information is spreading rampant and incorrect dosing instructions could be spreading. You go on euphyllia collector groups on social media and every other post is now all promoting antibiotics with a lot shorter duration. Also here on R2R. If it was that easy for me to find the incorrect dosing (under the impression it was correct) and produce resistant pathogens that quickly then surely that is going to be a very big problem sooner than later.

I think since most of these methods are being done in conjunction to Aquabiomics tests they should have an obligation to help spread awareness to correctly dosing and the risks beyond what they provide currently instead of getting instructions from coral dealers.

On this ReefBum episode Claude Shuhmacher specifically talks about no longer using frozen brine shrimp and being high risk.

 

[sculpin01]

High risk for what? Does he specify what the risk is of? Arcobacter 1103?