Randy's Elements to Dose

[ingchr1]

I don't agree with some of what Fauna Marin says (for which they supply zero evidence), and generally think that supplement sellers are typically a poor and biased source of info.

It kind of appears to be across the board, here's a snip of what Oceamo states. They don't list any benefits like Fauna Marin does, just that it is recommended to be kept at natural levels. They sell it as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It kind of appears to be across the board, here's a snip of what Oceamo states. They don't list any benefits like Fauna Marin does, just that it is recommended to be kept at natural levels. They sell it as well.

I have no problem with that statement from Oceamo or the idea of keeping everything at natural levels whether they have a demonstrated need or not. It is the most conservative and failsafe approach, if not the most convenient, cost effective, or scientifically justified approach.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's a curious and concerning fact.

I searched on terms such as rubidium cell damage repair to try to see what might be inducing Fauna Marin to claim "Recent studies have shown that rubidium plays a role in the repair of damaged cells".

I searched both google and google scholar. There are plenty of hits because rubidium is often used as a nontoxic marker of cell death by preloading cells with rubidium, then looking at its release when the cell membrane breaks.

The first hit on google is Fauna Marin (never a promising start lol)

The second hit is titled "RB in DNA repair"

Now we are getting somewhere....

Uh oh, turns out that RB in this case does not mean the chemical symbol for rubidium, but rather " retinoblastoma protein ", which has a number of cellular functions.

Sorting out all those, I find no other papers mentioning rubidium as a factor in cell damage repair.

Maybe I just did not find them. But my naturally skeptical mind says "Where's the beef?".

I certainly hope they did not stop at the titles of many papers to claim it was used in cell damage repair when in reality it is a different RB:

RB in DNA repair
Differential role of RB in response to UV and IR damage
RB localizes to DNA double-strand break sand promotes DNA end resection and ...
RB loss sensitizes cells to replication-associated DNA ..
Direct Regulation of DNA Repair by E2F and RB in ..
RB signaling prevents replication‐dependent DNA double...
Rb Regulates DNA Damage Response and Cellular ...
RB Stabilizes XPC and Promotes Cellular NER...
RB Regulates DNA Double Strand Break Repair Pathway ...

The RB protein gun seems to be smoking. The Rb element gun seems still locked away in the gun cabinet.

 

[ingchr1]

...In fact, you've only quoted one part of what FM stated. The full quote is: "Rubidium is a non-essential microelement but has a hardening effect on the growth tips and the coral skeleton."...

To me, the "non-essential" is the important part. What follows is an apparent unsubstantiated claim of their own experimentation. Unless there is further documentation that can be provided? Which to this point, none has been found (see Randy's post above). Also, the snip I posted contains the full quote.

 

[wmv]

We can dig into anything folks want.

I listed iodine as may be worth supplementing. Its hard for that statement to be wrong, but I’m certainly aware that some folks claim to find a big benefit and some do not dose it and are happy with their aquaria.

There’s also no drawback to dosing iodide to natural levels.

Hey Randy, thanks for all the info as always. I was wondering if you could explain a little about the difference between dosing iodine vs iodide. As in is one more effective than the other/easier for corals to use? Or does iodine turn into iodide basically the second it hits the water? I'm not sure if I totally worded my question correctly but was hoping you could provide some insight as I always see people interchanging the two when talking about it, which I'm assuming would be incorrect in some cases. Thanks again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey Randy, thanks for all the info as always. I was wondering if you could explain a little about the difference between dosing iodine vs iodide. As in is one more effective than the other/easier for corals to use? Or does iodine turn into iodide basically the second it hits the water? I'm not sure if I totally worded my question correctly but was hoping you could provide some insight as I always see people interchanging the two when talking about it, which I'm assuming would be incorrect in some cases. Thanks again

Iodine comes in many forms in a reef tank and in the ocean. It is mostly iodate (IO3-), some iodide, a smaller amount of various organoiodine compounds (e.g., methyliodide, CH3I), and a very, very small amount of diatomic iodine (I2).

I2 is reactive and can damage tissues (hence iodine on wounds to kill bacteria). My concern with it is that it will change the speciation of trace elements. I don't know if tht is good or bad for any given trace element it may reactyo with, but dosing I2 (say, in Lugols) is not as simple as adding iopdine. It may alter the bioavailability of other elements such as iron. It will convert into iodide after reacting with soemthing.

Iodide and iodate can also interconvert in aquaria. Phytoplankton is known to take iodate and convert it into iodide.

One other point. Iodide is believed by many scientists to be the agent that is taken up by many organisms needing iodine, and since the iodide is not the main component in seawater, it is not naturally as high as 0.06 ppm. More like 0.01to 0.02 ppm. Thus, when ICP says iodine is low, if it is iodide that is present, it may still be normal and be much lower than 0.06 ppm. That's another chink in the armor of ICP companies making recommendations based solely on total I concentration.

This article has loads more info:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iodine in Marine Aquaria: Part I

This first article will cover what is known about iodine in the oceans, including what forms it takes and how toxic these forms are, what organisms use it, how they obtain it, and what they use it for. It will also detail some issues around iodine measurement and what natural sources of iodine...

reefs.com

 

[ingchr1]

It kind of appears to be across the board...

For completeness, other claims that I could find specific to Rubidium. There are many other products that include Rubidium along with other elements, I did not delve into those.

Reef Moonshiners

Aquaforest

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Setting up and performing tests that evaluate the dosing of X element vs no dosing of X element is tedious, time consuming, and expensive. I expect that is why there are very few tests of these claims that are actually published in the various reefkeeping magazines. They'd love to publish a study that showed how much of an element did what, but no, they seemingly do not exist. My iodine test on macroalgae is one of the few. I'd love to hear about others, especially any test on corals, but I'm just not aware of them.

Why is that? Many of the supplement sellers make such claims and sometimes tout their own studies as evidence. Why not publish them? Why do such a difficult study and not show it? if they already have the evidence and it would prove me wrong in claims/hypotheses that I've been making about some elements (e.g., strontium, etc.) for decades, it would get addition attention here at Reef2Reef.

Could it be that they would not pass critique? Could it be the effects were real, but so small that no one really cares? perhaps like the old detergent whitening claims that said "You may not notice the difference, but the reflectometer proves it" lol

Could it be it is a one off observation in a single tank that was not identically controlled in every other way to the tank not getting the element?

Could it be the effects only apply in a very special scenario, such as no foods or water changes for a very long time, stripping trace elements way below what normal reefers ever see?

I don't know, but it gives me no confidence. It's almost like a late night TV commercial touting Wonderful wonderous herb that flushes out fat and gives you energy and improved memory.

 

[xtianGEO]

For completeness, other claims that I could find specific to Rubidium. There are many other products that include Rubidium along with other elements, I did not delve into those.

Reef Moonshiners

Aquaforest

I am so confused. Are you for or against dosing rubidium? You’ve linked all these snippets from proponents of rubidium, yet you haven’t provided anything concrete to support not dosing rubidium. I don’t wish to come off as condescending, but I really don’t understand your argument.

 

[ingchr1]

...Are you for or against dosing rubidium?...

Neither

...You’ve linked all these snippets from proponents of rubidium, yet you haven’t provided anything concrete to support not dosing rubidium...

From those snippets and Randy's posts, I get that Rubidium is non-essential.

...really don’t understand your argument.

Maybe because I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, just posting up what each of the vendors states.

 

[Slark]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley , after reading your article i decided to dose manganese and iron as frequent as you say. I found your DIY manganese recipe but you said it has some error, i see that you change it to 1g MnCl2 + 2,8 lits fresh water but it still quite complicated for me. Can you make it simple for me ? I have a 900 litres tank, can you help me to caculate the "safe" daily dose for manganese ? I mean that for example, how much the system like mine consume daily or how many mililit of these solution should i dose daily as minimum to maintain manganese ? Im sorry if my English is bad, in my country its hard to do icp test to know how much Mn in my tank so i can not caculate the right dose for mine

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley , after reading your article i decided to dose manganese and iron as frequent as you say. I found your DIY manganese recipe but you said it has some error, i see that you change it to 1g MnCl2 + 2,8 lits fresh water but it still quite complicated for me. Can you make it simple for me ? I have a 900 litres tank, can you help me to caculate the "safe" daily dose for manganese ? I mean that for example, how much the system like mine consume daily or how many mililit of these solution should i dose daily as minimum to maintain manganese ? Im sorry if my English is bad, in my country its hard to do icp test to know how much Mn in my tank so i can not caculate the right dose for mine

I cannot say how much your (or any) system uses, but IMO, it is likely a fine plan to add the NSW level of manganese twice a week.

The natural surface level is about 0.17 ug/L manganese.

In 900 liters, that means you want to dose 153 ug twice a week.

Manganese chloride tetrahydrate is 28% manganese by weight.

Assuming that is your starting material, then if you dissolve 1 gram in 1 liter of water, it contains 280 mg/L or 280 ug/mL.

Thus, adding 0.55 mL of that dosing solution twice a week seems good to me.

 

[tzabor10]

Thanks for the advice. Reefbum recently had Salem Clemens on and he advised against dosing something that you can’t test for. For most of us ICP can take weeks, and Rubidium tests really don’t exist. I choose water changes and All for reef and stick my head in the sand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the advice. Reefbum recently had Salem Clemens on and he advised against dosing something that you can’t test for. For most of us ICP can take weeks, and Rubidium tests really don’t exist. I choose water changes and All for reef and stick my head in the sand.

While that may sound appealing, I've never personally said that. People dose things all the time that they simply cannot test for (e.g., organics of many sorts including vitamins, fatty acids (Selcon), ethanol, acetic acid, methanol, , ,and even dose some things they do not know what they are (which I don't recommend).

IMO, it's OK to dose without testing for those things that rapidly deplete and for which there is a wide range of acceptable concentrations, such as iron, manganese, silicate, etc.

 

[Slark]

I cannot say how much your (or any) system uses, but IMO, it is likely a fine plan to add the NSW level of manganese twice a week.

The natural surface level is about 0.17 ug/L manganese.

In 900 liters, that means you want to dose 153 ug twice a week.

Manganese chloride tetrahydrate is 28% manganese by weight.

Assuming that is your starting material, then if you dissolve 1 gram in 1 liter of water, it contains 280 mg/L or 280 ug/mL.

Thus, adding 0.55 mL of that dosing solution twice a week seems good to me.

Thank you alot, Randy. Can i ask you how long can i keep the sution after mixing ? Ive just mixed 50 tablets of ferrous gluconate with 1400 ml RODI last night, i quite lazy so i made a big batch. Do i have to keep all off them in cool place like refrigerator ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you alot, Randy. Can i ask you how long can i keep the sution after mixing ? Ive just mixed 50 tablets of ferrous gluconate with 1400 ml RODI last night, i quite lazy so i made a big batch. Do i have to keep all off them in cool place like refrigerator ?

Ferrous gluconate will slowly air oxidize to ferric iron, and may precipitate. IMO, the solution is likely good for an extended period, but not forever as it will discolor and may precipitate. I don't know if refrigeration is useful, but I wouldn't bother. Keep it tightly closed.

 

[BAMatter]

I seem to have the emphasized elements covered via ESV Transition Elements and Aquavitro Fuel. What’s left behind is:
-Potassium
-Silicon
-Chromium
-Selium
-Strontium
@Randy Holmes-Farley are the above mentioned trace elements mixable if I were to concoct a dosing recipe to automate, or would it be better to dose individual elements manually say once a week?

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Weird question. I was under the assumption that lithium had no biological role based on the chart.

I’ve been researching about mental health in humans, and it seems like lithium is the gold standard treatment for bipolar patients. It also decreases the risk of suicidal ideation. It seemed like a pretty interesting biological role, no?

I’m definitely misunderstanding something. Is the “no biological role” only applicable for corals or is it not really considered a biological role in the human example?

 

[EricR]

Just found this,,, interesting,,, too bad I'm color blind.

I've been experimentally dosing DIY silicate (waterglass) and iron, based on reading some of Randy's articles already.
*plus DIY phosphate and nitrate (rarely) for a long time as the need arises

So, now, I have to go figure out what the heck manganese is and what to use?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Weird question. I was under the assumption that lithium had no biological role based on the chart.

I’ve been researching about mental health in humans, and it seems like lithium is the gold standard treatment for bipolar patients. It also decreases the risk of suicidal ideation. It seemed like a pretty interesting biological role, no?

I’m definitely misunderstanding something. Is the “no biological role” only applicable for corals or is it not really considered a biological role in the human example?

No biological role, as used by me and the Royal Society of Chemistry means no organism has any need or natural use if it. It does not mean no impact on organisms, such as a medication or toxicity.

Lithium at unnaturally high concentrations inhibits a number of enzymes which cause a variety of bodily changes, although it is not known which (if any of these known interactions) cause a benefit. Somewhat higher concentrations begin to cause toxicity.

The target blood levels for desirable effects in people are about 7 ppm, while the seawater concentration is about 0.17 ppm.