Randy's Elements to Dose

[JonsNano]

Iodine as I2 is not desirable and is largely unnatural in seawater. It is also reactive with tissues and that’s why do not recommend dosing it.

Seawater contains mostly iodate (IO3-), some iodide (I-) and a much smaller amount of organoiodine compounds of various sorts. I2, if present at all, is a much lower concentration and short lived form.

Would you say tropic marins iod would be a poor choice for dosing then?
Thanks in advance

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would you say tropic marins iod would be a poor choice for dosing then?
Thanks in advance

I generally recommend against Lugols. It adds iodide certainly, but the I2 is unnecessarily reactive and I cannot see why folks use it.

 

[Garf]

I generally recommend against Lugols. It adds iodide certainly, but the I2 is unnecessarily reactive and I cannot see why folks use it.

Could one not let it react with say a litre of tank water for an hour, then dose that? Would that make it a little safer, to you? I've got some in a little tank water now, to see what happens, lol. To be honest I was expecting it to stain the old tank water for a while, but no, after a few seconds no evidence of it (I drop in 2 litres).

 

[djf91]

Randy, isn’t there any organism (bacteria?) or other scenario where potassium is depleted rapidly even with regular water changes being performed? I started dosing a very small daily amount to my system and noticed that all of my struggling montipora and cyphatstrea turned right around in a matter of days. Better growth on slow growing Acropora too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could one not let it react with say a litre of tank water for an hour, then dose that? Would that make it a little safer, to you? I've got some in a little tank water now, to see what happens, lol. To be honest I was expecting it to stain the old tank water for a while, but no, after a few seconds no evidence of it (I drop in 2 litres).

That would likely work. Some of the iodine will be lost into making of organoiodine compounds, but that’s not likely an issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, isn’t there any organism (bacteria?) or other scenario where potassium is depleted rapidly even with regular water changes being performed? I started dosing a very small daily amount to my system and noticed that all of my struggling montipora and cyphatstrea turned right around in a matter of days. Better growth on slow growing Acropora too.

If foods do not supply as much potassium as is taken up to make tissue, potassium may decline, and in such a case, dosing it is useful. Thats why I colored it green in the table and recommended dosing it if needed.

I do not, however, think there are special organisms that take up unusually large amounts of potassium. I don’t think there is any form of potassium in organisms except as the usual K+ ion, so there’s no sink for it the way there can be for calcium, alk, N, P, etc.

 

[keithIHS]

I'm trying to figure out if I have a tin problem from the results of a recent ICP test. According to that test, my tank has 0.423 ppb (1 ug/L) Tin. Your table has 1.4 ng/L (pp trillion). ICP-Analysis gives several ocean values: 10, 0, and 0.34 ppb. A previous ATI ICP test gave 0.48 ppb as a target value. A very quick internet search gave 0.01 ppb (10 ng/L, 10 pp trillion) (Mance et al). Based on the earlier discussion on cobalt, I'm thinking that anything from 0 to 10 ppb is reasonable. Can you confirm a reasonable value for tin? How about a too-high action value?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

like many trace elements, and most especially for tin, the chemical form matters a lot.

But in general, your value is far below the values folks report when they have actual problems and I would not worry about it.

 

[xtianGEO]

Wait! Is rubidium in your 'not needed' section? Reef Moonshiners recommend this element. In fact, Fauna Marin also asserts that this element improves coloration and, to an extent, cell growth. However, both sources do admit that rubidium plays a role in coral tissue repair, but to what extent, who knows? Therefore, I propose that you reconsider classifying rubidium as 'experimental,' or at least explain why it's a hard pass.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wait! Is rubidium in your 'not needed' section? Reef Moonshiners recommend this element. In fact, Fauna Marin also asserts that this element improves coloration and, to an extent, cell growth. However, both sources do admit that rubidium plays a role in coral tissue repair, but to what extent, who knows? Therefore, I propose that you reconsider classifying rubidium as 'experimental,' or at least explain why it's a hard pass.

It is most definitely in my not needed advice. It has no demonstrated need in any earthly organism.

We have discussed it here several times and a few folks, such as Lasse, tried to verify an effect. I am well aware of these claims, and do not consider them as having any merit. There’s no experiment that I have ever seen that shows a need. Neither the moonshine folks nor ATI have provided any evidence.

I also disagree with other claims that are widely repeated with no supporting evidence of need. Barium, for example.

Last thing I want is for this science based forum to become a parrot of supplement company claims.

 

[xtianGEO]

Hey, thanks for the reply. Can you link Lasse's rubidium opinion piece? I want to read more about this element.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey, thanks for the reply. Can you link Lasse's rubidium opinion piece? I want to read more about this element.

Sure:

Dosing Rubidium

There have been some post claiming that dosing Rubidium can have some benefits - especially for zoanthids, mushrooms, softies and LPS. I´m interested to know how many that really dose this and the experiences of it - bad, none or good Please describe your experiences in the thread. I´m not out...

www.reef2reef.com

This was his final comment in that thread:

After 2.5 years dosing Rb to natural concentrations - I can´t see any effects that I can directly and solely link to the rubidium dosing.

 

[xtianGEO]

Sure:

Dosing Rubidium

There have been some post claiming that dosing Rubidium can have some benefits - especially for zoanthids, mushrooms, softies and LPS. I´m interested to know how many that really dose this and the experiences of it - bad, none or good Please describe your experiences in the thread. I´m not out...

www.reef2reef.com

This was his final comment in that thread:

After 2.5 years dosing Rb to natural concentrations - I can´t see any effects that I can directly and solely link to the rubidium dosing.

Hey, thanks for the link. It was a great read, and I'm happy to see the Reef Moonshiners (RM) vendor stand by his product. I will admit that I have dosed rubidium based on ICP testing and RM recommendations. Now, my corals are a lot heartier, but I have also introduced other elements, such as mud. In fact, my tank vastly improved after I added the AF Mud, despite not knowing the microbiome makeup. Will I continue to use rubidium? Meh. It really comes down to following the recipe laid out by RM and trusting the methodology. At the end of the exchange, I realized that deciding to dose rubidium or not doesn't really matter. It's akin to the purported health benefits of snake oil: it works for some.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey, thanks for the link. It was a great read, and I'm happy to see the Reef Moonshiners (RM) vendor stand by his product. I will admit that I have dosed rubidium based on ICP testing and RM recommendations. Now, my corals are a lot heartier, but I have also introduced other elements, such as mud. In fact, my tank vastly improved after I added the AF Mud, despite not knowing the microbiome makeup. Will I continue to use rubidium? Meh. It really comes down to following the recipe laid out by RM and trusting the methodology. At the end of the exchange, I realized that deciding to dose rubidium or not doesn't really matter. It's akin to the purported health benefits of snake oil: it works for some.

There’s certainly nothing wrong with maintaining natural levels. Many people like a laid out plan with proven success. The root of the question of benefit for any single part of a bigger plan can never be answered by the success or failure of that larger plan.

 

[xtianGEO]

so, experimental?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

so, experimental?

Experimental in my article means there are at least some known organisms that have a demonstrated need for it, and so since not all reef reef organisms that we keep have been studied, there is some real potential that it may be useful.

On the other hand, I think it is very unlikely that reefers have or will find an entirely new need for an element that is not known to science. Further, none of those I list have any actual evidence shown by reefers. Just assertions without ANY evidence. It’s not impossible for such a random assertion to actually have truth behind it, but it is unlikely enough that I do not want to suggest that it is worthy of reefer experimentation.

 

[ingchr1]

Wait! Is rubidium in your 'not needed' section? Reef Moonshiners recommend this element. In fact, Fauna Marin also asserts that this element improves coloration and, to an extent, cell growth. However, both sources do admit that rubidium plays a role in coral tissue repair, but to what extent, who knows? Therefore, I propose that you reconsider classifying rubidium as 'experimental,' or at least explain why it's a hard pass.

Fauna Marin states that Rubidium is a "non-essential microelement". It's also not an element that is tested for with their Reef ICP Test Total.

Snip from their Knowledge Base on Rubidium:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fauna Marin states that Rubidium is a "non-essential microelement". It's also not an element that is tested for with their Reef ICP Test Total.

Snip from their Knowledge Base on Rubidium:

I don't agree with some of what Fauna Marin says (for which they supply zero evidence), and generally think that supplement sellers are typically a poor and biased source of info.

 

[xtianGEO]

Fauna Marin states that Rubidium is a "non-essential microelement". It's also not an element that is tested for with their Reef ICP Test Total.

Snip from their Knowledge Base on Rubidium:

Hello
Good morning.

As I previously stated, the true value of snake oil is intangible; it works for some despite no discernible positive effects. Similarly, the true purpose or value of rubidium is not fully understood, except for its observed effects on "a better color shine and harder skeleton formation in corals," according to Fauna Marin (FM). In fact, you've only quoted one part of what FM stated. The full quote is: "Rubidium is a non-essential microelement but has a hardening effect on the growth tips and the coral skeleton." So, I'm not trying to convince anyone to put this substance in their tank but rather to keep an open mind. "Open your mind!" I mean, if the experts at World Wide and Top Shelf added urine to their tanks because ammonia could enhance coloration and growth, I bet many here would do the same. And I guarantee that many others would argue that human urine has no benefits for corals. Hey, thanks for the thought exercise.

Have a good day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hello
Good morning.

As I previously stated, the true value of snake oil is intangible; it works for some despite no discernible positive effects. Similarly, the true purpose or value of rubidium is not fully understood, except for its observed effects on "a better color shine and harder skeleton formation in corals," according to Fauna Marin (FM). In fact, you've only quoted one part of what FM stated. The full quote is: "Rubidium is a non-essential microelement but has a hardening effect on the growth tips and the coral skeleton." So, I'm not trying to convince anyone to put this substance in their tank but rather to keep an open mind. "Open your mind!" I mean, if the experts at World Wide and Top Shelf added urine to their tanks because ammonia could enhance coloration and growth, I bet many here would do the same. And I guarantee that many others would argue that human urine has no benefits for corals. Hey, thanks for the thought exercise.

Have a good day.

In some respects, trace element supplement makes are in a race to the bottom.

Joe Reefer walks into a shop looking to make his corals more colorful. So of course, many manufacturers put such claims front and center with, IMO, wilds claims like Red Sea makes:

" contains an Iodine and Halogen complex to help promote the pink colors in corals"
" contains potassium to help promote the red colors in corals"
"contains iron and complementary trace element complex to help promote the green colors in corals"
"contains trace element complex to help promote the purple/blue colors in corals"

Great! Every color he wants is boosted. Got to go with that one, not the one from Tropic Marin that only claims:

" When trace element levels start to get low corals can lose their color and stop growing completely"

despite the fact that it has most or all of the same trace elements. lol

But then Joe reefer sees another brand, which claims to add rubidium. Hmmm. Cell damage repair? Shiny corals? yes, I want that, why don't the others add that? probably just not as good of a company. well, got to get that one too.


In the end, he ends up with products with the best claims and the most ions, not the most appropriate or useful products which may have a less exciting, but more technically correct claim about what they can do.