Possible velvet?

[saltcats]

Hate that I'm posting here again...

I got a pair of high fin gobies last Saturday 5/25. They settled in quick and have been eating great for me, 3-4 small meals a day and they are very vigorous!

Yesterday they spent a lot of the day swimming upwards on the back corner where the flow from the filter directs down, which I was a bit suspicious about but I'm also not very familiar with typical behavior for this type of fish (they swam up like this a lot on the first couple days before settling in, and they swim up like that when they think they are getting fed).

Both looked in good condition and ate well, although I noticed the more brown-toned one of the 2 has some tattered edges to its fins with a slight white-ish outline; wasn't sure if this might be a bacterial infection or result of aggression? Haven't seen any fighting between them and they hang out together a lot; neither seems "dominant". Other one looked perfect.

This morning nobody was waiting for breakfast which seems unusual to me... I put a little food in and the darker coloured one came out from a hole in the rock and ate well. It seems to have some stringy looking mucus hanging off it which is scaring me; I don't know if they make more mucus to sleep in at night or if this is a bad sign? I haven't seen the second one yet this morning.

I'm really hoping I'm overreacting and it's nothing, but my experience so far is that saltwater fish have very subtle symptoms until it's too late...
Attaching a couple pictures/video. They are so small I'm struggling to count respiration rate.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Quarantine tank (but I have sand and live rock in there, was going for more observational/get them eating well)
Aquarium water volume: Fluval evo 13.5 (I think it's about 11-12 gallons when I measured)
Filtration type: built in
Lighting: built in
How long has the aquarium been established? First wet 11/25/22; transferred all contents to new location Oct '23
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: little high recently with heat wave; around 80
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Nitrate: 0-5 API
Phosphorus: 0 Salifert

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? No
Are any invertebrates affected? No but I only have a couple snails/hitchhikers in this tank
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4)
Are the affected fish still feeding? Both were eating well last night; this morning I have only seen 1 so far and it is still eating.
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -

- if needed, indicate by drawing a line around the area in question.
A short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) - this is perhaps the best information that you can supply, as long as the video is clear.

Fish Medics:
We now have a core group of seven fish disease experts to assist you with your issues. You can tell who is a member of this group by the blue "Fish Medic" banner below their name on the left side of their posts. While we may not always respond with exactly the same advice, all of us have been vetted, and will follow certain tried and true disease treatments. Using #fishmedic will alert these members of your post.

Thanks very much for your time!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hate that I'm posting here again...

I got a pair of high fin gobies last Saturday 5/25. They settled in quick and have been eating great for me, 3-4 small meals a day and they are very vigorous!

Yesterday they spent a lot of the day swimming upwards on the back corner where the flow from the filter directs down, which I was a bit suspicious about but I'm also not very familiar with typical behavior for this type of fish (they swam up like this a lot on the first couple days before settling in, and they swim up like that when they think they are getting fed).

Both looked in good condition and ate well, although I noticed the more brown-toned one of the 2 has some tattered edges to its fins with a slight white-ish outline; wasn't sure if this might be a bacterial infection or result of aggression? Haven't seen any fighting between them and they hang out together a lot; neither seems "dominant". Other one looked perfect.

This morning nobody was waiting for breakfast which seems unusual to me... I put a little food in and the darker coloured one came out from a hole in the rock and ate well. It seems to have some stringy looking mucus hanging off it which is scaring me; I don't know if they make more mucus to sleep in at night or if this is a bad sign? I haven't seen the second one yet this morning.

I'm really hoping I'm overreacting and it's nothing, but my experience so far is that saltwater fish have very subtle symptoms until it's too late...
Attaching a couple pictures/video. They are so small I'm struggling to count respiration rate.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Quarantine tank (but I have sand and live rock in there, was going for more observational/get them eating well)
Aquarium water volume: Fluval evo 13.5 (I think it's about 11-12 gallons when I measured)
Filtration type: built in
Lighting: built in
How long has the aquarium been established? First wet 11/25/22; transferred all contents to new location Oct '23
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: little high recently with heat wave; around 80
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Nitrate: 0-5 API
Phosphorus: 0 Salifert

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? No
Are any invertebrates affected? No but I only have a couple snails/hitchhikers in this tank
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4)
Are the affected fish still feeding? Both were eating well last night; this morning I have only seen 1 so far and it is still eating.
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -

- if needed, indicate by drawing a line around the area in question.
A short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) - this is perhaps the best information that you can supply, as long as the video is clear.

Fish Medics:
We now have a core group of seven fish disease experts to assist you with your issues. You can tell who is a member of this group by the blue "Fish Medic" banner below their name on the left side of their posts. While we may not always respond with exactly the same advice, all of us have been vetted, and will follow certain tried and true disease treatments. Using #fishmedic will alert these members of your post.

Thanks very much for your time!

Please a 30 second you tube video as it can also be flukes

 

[saltcats]

Please a 30 second you tube video as it can also be flukes

Sure - is my imgur video not showing up for you or just not long enough? So I can make sure I get the right thing Thanks!

 

[saltcats]

Took a new video just now (link in case embed isn't working - )
If still not working I'll attempt to make a youtube account...

I still have only seen 1 of them this morning. Seems to be acting more normal - not swimming vertically on the wall constantly (actually only started when I went to take this video, before this it was hanging out on the bottom). Don't see the mucus-y strands I saw first thing this morning anymore...

Hope this is helpful to diagnose what's going on! I haven't seen any yawning, scratching, etc in these fish. The one I haven't seen since last night is the one with the tattered fin edges; could it be bullying??

Still eating as of just now.

UPDATE: found second fish, he got in the back chambers. Going to see if I can get him out and put him in a breeder trap in case he's getting bullied.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Fish is in high distress and may be moribund
Increase oxygen with an air stone and check ammonia and ph level

 

[MnFish1]

I don't know based on the pictures. Based on your history - it could be a velvet-type issue or flukes (or something else). I do not see Ich. Can I ask did you get the fish from an LFS - or online? Do you know the specific gravity, etc of the tank they were in?

 

[saltcats]

Fish is in high distress and may be moribund
Increase oxygen with an air stone and check ammonia and ph level

I have an air stone running constantly, and returns pointed towards the surface. Ammonia 0. pH 8.2

Can I ask what you are seeing that leads you to call it moribund? I want to understand so I can assess my fish better in the future; to me, aside from the possibly weird swimming behavior (vertically up the glass) this fish that didn't go into the overflow seems pretty alert and lively.

I don't know based on the pictures. Based on your history - it could be a velvet-type issue or flukes (or something else). I do not see Ich. Can I ask did you get the fish from an LFS - or online? Do you know the specific gravity, etc of the tank they were in?

Part of me is wondering if there was something in this tank I never actually eradicated... But the hector's goby which I did declare healthy and moved to the display 5 weeks ago is doing well down there and so is my possum wrasse. I haven't seen anything that would cause me alarm in that tank...

I did get 3 of the fish from the same LFS - the firefish (died 3/27, suspected flukes introduced on coral frag OR not fully treated due to low prazi dose from 1/30/24... but I never saw symptoms on either fish after that first round of 2 doses until about 10 days after I added the coral frags.) And these 2 high fin gobies from that same store.
The Hector's gobies are from a different LFS and I suspected that was the source of my first fluke infection but now I'm wondering if its this LFS. First hector's goby from them did die but it sounded like it was not disease related.

They are kept at 1.025 at the LFS and I verified it myself before adding to the tank. I also checked pH (I follow Jay's acclimation guide).

---

The fish which went into the overflow I don't think is going to make it I haven't been able to retrieve it yet (not for lack of trying!) but it doesn't look good back there at all. I noticed that its tail fin is very damaged and red, which was not the case when they were fed last night at 7pm before lights out.

So I am wondering if the other goby was being a bully when I didn't see, and attacked it/chased it into there?
Or.... Could there be something else hiding in my tank that is a threat to them both?? I didn't use ocean live rock or anything but that tank definitely has plenty of critters. Bristleworms (I know not a threat), really big amphipods (like 1/4" long at least)... don't know if they could gang up on a small sleeping fish?
Big aiptasias and some very small ball nems too; if those could sting a small fish and cause that type of injury I will be sure to remove them.

---

I have prazi, fritz copper, a second tank I can move anybody to, anything I can do!

I'm definitely doing a full prophylactic medicated QT for all fish moving forward Too much stress and heartbreak.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have an air stone running constantly, and returns pointed towards the surface. Ammonia 0. pH 8.2

Can I ask what you are seeing that leads you to call it moribund? I want to understand so I can assess my fish better in the future; to me, aside from the possibly weird swimming behavior (vertically up the glass) this fish that didn't go into the overflow seems pretty alert and lively.


Part of me is wondering if there was something in this tank I never actually eradicated... But the hector's goby which I did declare healthy and moved to the display 5 weeks ago is doing well down there and so is my possum wrasse. I haven't seen anything that would cause me alarm in that tank...

I did get 3 of the fish from the same LFS - the firefish (died 3/27, suspected flukes introduced on coral frag OR not fully treated due to low prazi dose from 1/30/24... but I never saw symptoms on either fish after that first round of 2 doses until about 10 days after I added the coral frags.) And these 2 high fin gobies from that same store.
The Hector's gobies are from a different LFS and I suspected that was the source of my first fluke infection but now I'm wondering if its this LFS. First hector's goby from them did die but it sounded like it was not disease related.

They are kept at 1.025 at the LFS and I verified it myself before adding to the tank. I also checked pH (I follow Jay's acclimation guide).

---

The fish which went into the overflow I don't think is going to make it I haven't been able to retrieve it yet (not for lack of trying!) but it doesn't look good back there at all. I noticed that its tail fin is very damaged and red, which was not the case when they were fed last night at 7pm before lights out.

So I am wondering if the other goby was being a bully when I didn't see, and attacked it/chased it into there?
Or.... Could there be something else hiding in my tank that is a threat to them both?? I didn't use ocean live rock or anything but that tank definitely has plenty of critters. Bristleworms (I know not a threat), really big amphipods (like 1/4" long at least)... don't know if they could gang up on a small sleeping fish?
Big aiptasias and some very small ball nems too; if those could sting a small fish and cause that type of injury I will be sure to remove them.

---

I have prazi, fritz copper, a second tank I can move anybody to, anything I can do!

I'm definitely doing a full prophylactic medicated QT for all fish moving forward Too much stress and heartbreak.

Unless it’s a picture angle, fish appears to be laying down

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have an air stone running constantly, and returns pointed towards the surface. Ammonia 0. pH 8.2

Can I ask what you are seeing that leads you to call it moribund? I want to understand so I can assess my fish better in the future; to me, aside from the possibly weird swimming behavior (vertically up the glass) this fish that didn't go into the overflow seems pretty alert and lively.


Part of me is wondering if there was something in this tank I never actually eradicated... But the hector's goby which I did declare healthy and moved to the display 5 weeks ago is doing well down there and so is my possum wrasse. I haven't seen anything that would cause me alarm in that tank...

I did get 3 of the fish from the same LFS - the firefish (died 3/27, suspected flukes introduced on coral frag OR not fully treated due to low prazi dose from 1/30/24... but I never saw symptoms on either fish after that first round of 2 doses until about 10 days after I added the coral frags.) And these 2 high fin gobies from that same store.
The Hector's gobies are from a different LFS and I suspected that was the source of my first fluke infection but now I'm wondering if its this LFS. First hector's goby from them did die but it sounded like it was not disease related.

They are kept at 1.025 at the LFS and I verified it myself before adding to the tank. I also checked pH (I follow Jay's acclimation guide).

---

The fish which went into the overflow I don't think is going to make it I haven't been able to retrieve it yet (not for lack of trying!) but it doesn't look good back there at all. I noticed that its tail fin is very damaged and red, which was not the case when they were fed last night at 7pm before lights out.

So I am wondering if the other goby was being a bully when I didn't see, and attacked it/chased it into there?
Or.... Could there be something else hiding in my tank that is a threat to them both?? I didn't use ocean live rock or anything but that tank definitely has plenty of critters. Bristleworms (I know not a threat), really big amphipods (like 1/4" long at least)... don't know if they could gang up on a small sleeping fish?
Big aiptasias and some very small ball nems too; if those could sting a small fish and cause that type of injury I will be sure to remove them.

---

I have prazi, fritz copper, a second tank I can move anybody to, anything I can do!

I'm definitely doing a full prophylactic medicated QT for all fish moving forward Too much stress and heartbreak.

Power heads pointed ip breaks surface- add an air stone

 

[saltcats]

Unless it’s a picture angle, fish appears to be laying down

Thanks for clarifying

The video is taken vertically, the fish is swimming up the back glass of the tank. Sometimes he attaches to it using his fins to rest there.
When he rests on the bottom he's perched on his fins in what I figure is typical goby perching (although these are my first bottom dwelling saltwater fish so I could be mistaken!).

 

[saltcats]

Just fed them lunch and grabbed a video/photo in case this helps with anything. I guess there is a very slight hint of white/opaqueness to the very edges of the tail and dorsal fin? Hard to say. The black of his high fin part doesn't look as crispy. The two larger white circles on the tail fin and before the dorsal fin are on the glass, not the fish (he was moving too quick to get a better photo).

The other one is still in the back chamber but I am thinking of letting it be there; it can't get to the pump or anything and I guess that back chamber is functionally the same as putting it in a breeder box for isolation. I don't expect it to pull through unfortunately

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just fed them lunch and grabbed a video/photo in case this helps with anything. I guess there is a very slight hint of white/opaqueness to the very edges of the tail and dorsal fin? Hard to say. The black of his high fin part doesn't look as crispy. The two larger white circles on the tail fin and before the dorsal fin are on the glass, not the fish (he was moving too quick to get a better photo).

The other one is still in the back chamber but I am thinking of letting it be there; it can't get to the pump or anything and I guess that back chamber is functionally the same as putting it in a breeder box for isolation. I don't expect it to pull through unfortunately

In the first video, the lower fish seems to be in greater distress, but both gobies seem to be breathing too fast. I think your water quality is ok, so I'm focusing on some disease. Trouble is, all I can really rule out here is ich. It still could be velvet (Amyloodinium) or flukes. Trouble is, these require two different treatments. Flukes can be dealt with by using Prazipro in the display, but velvet would require promptly moving all of the fish to a treatment tank and treating with copper.

Jay

 

[saltcats]

In the first video, the lower fish seems to be in greater distress, but both gobies seem to be breathing too fast. I think your water quality is ok, so I'm focusing on some disease. Trouble is, all I can really rule out here is ich. It still could be velvet (Amyloodinium) or flukes. Trouble is, these require two different treatments. Flukes can be dealt with by using Prazipro in the display, but velvet would require promptly moving all of the fish to a treatment tank and treating with copper.

Jay

Thanks Jay.

If it's flukes, can I use hypo instead? I've already run 5 doses Prazi in this tank with a previous fish so I assume it's not effective anymore. Or I can move to a different tank for Prazi again.

I have copper on hand and hanna checker coming Friday. Any thoughts on which plan of attack to go with? I believe you don't recommend mixing these 2 meds.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay.

If it's flukes, can I use hypo instead? I've already run 5 doses Prazi in this tank with a previous fish so I assume it's not effective anymore. Or I can move to a different tank for Prazi again.

I have copper on hand and hanna checker coming Friday. Any thoughts on which plan of attack to go with? I believe you don't recommend mixing these 2 meds.

Hypo doesn't work for true velvet, that parasite can survive down to 4 ppt, and your fish cannot tolerate that.

Coppersafe and prazi can be mixed - I try to avoid that, but in some cases, when the diagnosis is open, you need to do that in order to cover all bases.

Having dosed that tank with prazi 5 times (I assume before you got these gobies?) means that the prazi-eating bacteria will be in full force and will likely limit the effectiveness of any subsequent doses from this point forward.

Jay

 

[saltcats]

Hypo doesn't work for true velvet, that parasite can survive down to 4 ppt, and your fish cannot tolerate that.

Coppersafe and prazi can be mixed - I try to avoid that, but in some cases, when the diagnosis is open, you need to do that in order to cover all bases.

Having dosed that tank with prazi 5 times (I assume before you got these gobies?) means that the prazi-eating bacteria will be in full force and will likely limit the effectiveness of any subsequent doses from this point forward.

Jay

Yeah, the prazi was for a previous fish run through the QT. In hindsight I wish I'd fully broken it down in between but I was not expecting to run into disease with every single fish I buy!
I'm definitely going to follow your full protocol for everything moving forward and maybe try a different LFS...

So would you suggest moving the remaining goby to a hospital tank and running both meds together this time?
I would do 1 dose prazi, wait 8 days, 1 dose prazi, and simultaneously maintain coppersafe at 2.25 ppm?

Do I need to do a water change between the prazi doses (and dose copper into water change water to keep level at therapeutic)?

One question I was wondering about - can I transfer the foam filter block from this tank over to the hospital to keep cycle, or will that bring too much prazi-eating bacteria with it?

Thanks so much for all your help.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah, the prazi was for a previous fish run through the QT. In hindsight I wish I'd fully broken it down in between but I was not expecting to run into disease with every single fish I buy!
I'm definitely going to follow your full protocol for everything moving forward and maybe try a different LFS...

So would you suggest moving the remaining goby to a hospital tank and running both meds together this time?
I would do 1 dose prazi, wait 8 days, 1 dose prazi, and simultaneously maintain coppersafe at 2.25 ppm?

Do I need to do a water change between the prazi doses (and dose copper into water change water to keep level at therapeutic)?

One question I was wondering about - can I transfer the foam filter block from this tank over to the hospital to keep cycle, or will that bring too much prazi-eating bacteria with it?

Thanks so much for all your help.

Transferring a sponge filter from the existing tank is a wild card - I suspect that it will carry over enough of the heterotrophic bacteria to reduce the benefit of the prazi treatment, but I don't know that for certain.

Water changes after a prazi treatment is done mainly as a benefit when it is used in a reef tank, to reduce the organic loading from the prazi and the solvent, if that isn't a concern (no corals present) then you don't need to do that.

Jay

 

[saltcats]

Okay, hospital tank filled with new SW, going to transfer filter media from my display instead (never had prazi).

Do I put copper + prazi in the tank before the fish? Checked QT protocol thread, saw to dose it up in 2 doses in 24 hours.
Now my question is, I don't have the Hanna checker till Friday, but I do know my exact volume of water (filled tank from empty for this setup). If I follow the dose on the Fritz bottle, that works out to 2.0ppm as stated? Is there a different dose calculation people recommend for this?

I put the airstone in the back AIO compartments and have both returns pointed towards surface; is the airstone effective back there (I assume yes since all water is flowing through system anyway)? Prefer to keep it out of display to let the lid fit tightly.

 

[saltcats]

Okay, did some approximate math for Fritz dose, let me know if this sounds reasonable:

5ml in 4 gallons -> 12.89 ml in my 10.3 gallons, for ~2.0ppm.
Recommended level is 2.25 ppm reached in 2 doses 12 hours apart, so -
14.5 ml in 10.3 gallons gives 2.25 ppm, dose 8 ml to start with? Or go straight for the 12ml dose and then verify levels on Friday?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Okay, did some approximate math for Fritz dose, let me know if this sounds reasonable:

5ml in 4 gallons -> 12.89 ml in my 10.3 gallons, for ~2.0ppm.
Recommended level is 2.25 ppm reached in 2 doses 12 hours apart, so -
14.5 ml in 10.3 gallons gives 2.25 ppm, dose 8 ml to start with? Or go straight for the 12ml dose and then verify levels on Friday?

Please do Not go by drops and obtain and use a Hanna brand Copper test kit for accuracy as this product can be easily overdosed especially when considering total tank volume (EG: a 50 gal tank may have 45 useable gallons)

 

[saltcats]

Please do Not go by drops and obtain and use a Hanna brand Copper test kit for accuracy as this product can be easily overdosed especially when considering total tank volume (EG: a 50 gal tank may have 45 useable gallons)

Thanks; my checker is arriving Friday but fish probably won't last that long with no treatment. I know the actual water volume as I've just filled the tank from empty and made note of how much I added.