Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[NickC]

I just stumbled on this thread and find it incredibly interesting. While I’m not necessarily buying the “This is the parasite that is the cause for every single RTN event ever” theory quite yet, it is most definitely worth looking into. I’m actually really surprised that it’s being so readily dismissed.

Maybe the critter is an opportunist, maybe it does need a stress event to take over. But, on the other hand, maybe our corals are RTN’ing after otherwise survivable stresses due to a parasite. Bottom line is, we don’t know. This is neat and has potential to be a big discovery, bigger than our aquarium hobby if it pans out to be true.

While I won’t be lining up to declare war on these things, I will most definitely be watching this unfold.

 

[ca1ore]

I'm all for credible research, but prefer to wait until there is evidence of causation rather than just correlation.

 

[reefwiser]

Jamie Craggs has post'ed many times about Ciliates and their association with STN and RTN. Once a corals is weak and under stress they do not fight off the Ciliates and then the battle is over for the coral.

https://www.horniman.ac.uk/about/our-staff/people/jamie-craggs

 

[Reefahholic]

Jamie Craggs has post'ed many times about Ciliates and their association with STN and RTN. Once a corals is weak and under stress they do not fight off the Ciliates and then the battle is over for the coral.

https://www.horniman.ac.uk/about/our-staff/people/jamie-craggs

My thoughts exactly...and then the philaster parasites move in by the thousands....shaped like rockets...and RTN the coral in 24 hours.

Watch this video and tell me it doesn't make logical sense. I think we got our man. Or should we say....thousands of men.

 

[ca1ore]

Once a coral is weak and under stress they do not fight off the Ciliates and then the battle is over for the coral.

I don't think anyone would have violent disagreement with that. It's true in fish - keep the fish healthy and robust and ich can be managed; let the fish get unhealthy and weak and you'll have a major breakout. Anemones withstand bacteria in our tanks when healthy; can succumb to bacterial infections if not healthy. It may well be that eliminating coral parasites will prevent RTN; or it may be that the underlying stress will result in their demise regardless. That's why you run competent experiments rather than assumptions about what might be true or not true.

 

[Reefnjunkie]

Sounds as if nobody ran across Docs thread on the SPS Facebook group, last I saw it was around 1400 posts but impossible to follow do to how Facebook isn’t designed well for comments flowing smoothly IMHO

I’ve used both the intank and the dip and had success along with failure but that’s for another thread.

I’ve been waiting for nearly a month for this to come to R2R so those with knowledge can share some wisdom.

Docs claim that the philaster and one other I can’t spell are the sole reason for ALL STN/RTN

Not some but all, 100% the sole culprit.

That’s were I need enlightenment, thats a tough pill to swallow and I followed the FB thread from the 1st post.

Like to hear some others with insight share some thoughts.

 

[Reefahholic]

Sounds as if nobody ran across Docs thread on the SPS Facebook group, last I saw it was around 1400 posts but impossible to follow do to how Facebook isn’t designed well for comments flowing smoothly IMHO

I’ve used both the intank and the dip and had success along with failure but that’s for another thread.

I’ve been waiting for nearly a month for this to come to R2R so those with knowledge can share some wisdom.

Docs claim that the philaster and one other I can’t spell are the sole reason for ALL STN/RTN

Not some but all, 100% the sole culprit.

That’s were I need enlightenment, thats a tough pill to swallow and I followed the FB thread from the 1st post.

Like to hear some others with insight share some thoughts.

I thinks it’s very possible that the Philaster could be responsible for all RTN. BUT..........just not all STN. The slower tissue necrosis is a different story and one that I’m not as interested in. Not that they can’t, but I think that’s a different bug or issue all together. With RTN...I just can’t dream up anything else that can cause that kind of rapid damage. It’s about like pouring gas in a dry corn field and setting it on fire! It’s like a piranha frenzy or maggots consuming dead tissue. When they get the signal...it’s game over. What’s the signal??? Stress! How do they know?? A smell...a chemical...something!!! Something sends them the message and they all get it. Maybe God has designed them this way. How do geese know which way to fly south for the winter!? I don’t know!

So it’s an issue of speed for me which is why I’m looking mostly to study the Philaster parasites. I want to isolate a healthy Acro colony on video and then stress it with a huge ALK swing from 8.0 to 12. Then see if they come running. We need an underwater microscope! How could we make this happen??

 

[AquamanE]

Following

 

[Reefnjunkie]

I thinks it’s very possible that the Philaster could be responsible for all RTN. BUT..........just not all STN. The slower tissue necrosis is a different story and one that I’m not as interested in. Not that they can’t, but I think that’s a different bug or issue all together. With RTN...I just can’t dream up anything else that can cause that kind of rapid damage. It’s about like pouring gas in a dry corn field and setting it on fire! It’s like a piranha frenzy or maggots consuming dead tissue. When they get the signal...it’s game over. What’s the signal??? Stress! How do they know?? A smell...a chemical...something!!! Something sends them the message and they all get it. Maybe God has designed them this way. How do geese know which way to fly south for the winter!? I don’t know!

So it’s an issue of speed for me which is why I’m looking mostly to study the Philaster parasites. I want to isolate a healthy Acro colony on video and then stress it with a huge ALK swing from 8.0 to 12. Then see if they come running. We need an underwater microscope! How could we make this happen??

There is another parasite I don’t recall the exact name or spelling Euphrates like the river LOL or close, that could be the STN culprit.
There were a few people on FB that had information but the thread got out of hand with a bunch of keyboard warriors.

Matt Visocky, Mark Davis are names I recall that seemed informed. If I recall correctly (that’s scary even typing that) issues were mentioned on Docs trials and whether he followed what one would do in order to prove a theory. Koch something I think, 4 steps/trials/tests etc.

White band disease was mentioned as in “ are we talking about white band disease again” when philaster and the whole cause for RTN/STN was mentioned.

Has to be memebers here that followed that FB thread

 

[Reefahholic]

So what he did was use “Koch's postulates.” These are four criteria designed to establish a “causative relationship” between a microbe and a disease. He’s went through all four Koch’s postulates more than a hunderd times before he officially announced his discovery.

Let me sum this up so that you can easily understand:

1. He isolated the Philaster parasite/ organism from RTNing coral.

2. Then he cultured it.

(IMO he did multiple sensitivity tests to find the Philaster’s weakness. After its weakness was identified... he developed His products. Then tested them to make sure they would work. Surely he tested with fish, inverts, etc.)

3. Next... he reintroduced the Philaster into healthy acropora samples.

4. Then the healthy acropora coral samples became infected, and they demonstrated RTN themselves.

5. Finally he re-isolated the Philaster parasite from the RTNing corals that were once healthy proving it was the same organisms.

 

[Reefnjunkie]

So what he did was use “Koch's postulates.” These are four criteria designed to establish a “causative relationship” between a microbe and a disease. He’s went through all four Koch’s postulates more than a hunderd times before he officially announced his discovery.

Let me sum this up so that you can easily understand:

1. He isolated the Philaster parasite/ organism from RTNing coral.

2. Then he cultured it.

(IMO he did multiple sensitivity tests to find the Philaster’s weakness. After its weakness was identified... he developed His products. Then tested them to make sure they would work. Surely he tested with fish, inverts, etc.)

3. Next... he reintroduced the Philaster into healthy acropora samples.

4. Then the healthy acropora coral samples became infected, and they demonstrated RTN themselves.

5. Finally he re-isolated the Philaster parasite from the RTNing corals that were once healthy proving it was the same organisms.

Were you active in the FB thread?

Thanks for the explanation too.

 

[BigJohnny]

Two issues with this:

1. This Dr. is saying it is the sole cause of all stn/rtn (supposedly, I havent read any of his stuff). That's an incredibly unscientific conclusion for a scientist. There hasnt been enough research/studies done to even remotely consider saying something like that, and any credible scientist would not.

2. He is selling a product that kills them.

Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Halal Hotdog]

The theory is intriguing, especially because we already see this with fish. You can have a tank that has a chronic level of ich or velvet parasites but the fish have built up resistance. It takes one stressful event and half of the fish show signs of an advanced parasitic infection and die within day(s). Sometimes the fish can still fight off the parasite and develop a secondary bacterial infection that still leads to death. The vast majority of illness with our fish is related to a handful of parasites. That sounds a lot like what is being proposed in this topic. More research is definitely necessary but seems possible that one or two parasites are responsible.

 

[jda]

I must be lucky... no Philaster must be in my tank. I wonder how I avoided them? I did not even try.

 

[BigJohnny]

Two issues with this:

1. This Dr. is saying it is the sole cause of all stn/rtn (supposedly, I havent read any of his stuff). That's an incredibly unscientific conclusion for a scientist. There hasnt been enough research/studies done to even remotely consider saying something like that, and any credible scientist would not.

2. He is selling a product that kills them.

Coincidence? I think not.

Ok I watched the video. This guys about as credible as "Nigerian prince" who needs you to PayPal them a bitcoin so they can reclaim their fortune and pay you back. He was all over the place, contradicting himself, etc. There are also contradictions on the website selling the product.

What are his credentials? I bet hes a doctor of dentistry or some unrelated nonsense.

There is some truth to what he says, but he jumps to insane conclusions and calls them facts in order to try and sell the product.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

For some strange reason, I found that hysterically funny. It is true though. We apply imprecise terms to a broad range of observable conditions. Every pest anemone is a majano; every micro star is an asterina; every coral dies from RTN ….. and so on.

I feel like they say bleached or bleaching, when rtn or stn is actually happening

 

[Reefnjunkie]

Two issues with this:

1. This Dr. is saying it is the sole cause of all stn/rtn (supposedly, I havent read any of his stuff). That's an incredibly unscientific conclusion for a scientist. There hasnt been enough research/studies done to even remotely consider saying something like that, and any credible scientist would not.

2. He is selling a product that kills them.

Coincidence? I think not.

You are absolutely correct that is s his claim. I’d like to hear more about what types of test haven’t been done to be able to make such a claim.

I’m not saying what he claims isn’t true, as I mentioned I did his intank treatment and I’ve used his dip. Last year I started losing acros it it spanned nearly 6 months, everyday something gone, not RTN but a branch here and there etc. I trouble shot everything known, performed every possible test and the list goes on.

I was at the end of my rope and ran across the thread on FB. followed it for a month from post 1 to 1200+ (painful of FB) watchers his videos of in tank treatments and from what I saw I wa comfortable giving it try-nothing else had helped and I’d been at it all those months trying to stop the hemorrhaging.

Initial intank directions were bad-
( I was basically a beta tester unbeknownst to me, but the treatments were being modded as the days went on) and half my fish died do to lack of oxygen so directions got changed to leave skimmer running with the cup off for oxygen.
The doc owned it and we took care of it.

Trying to not make this any longer I saw positive results and the hemorrhaging has stopped. I’m still having minor issues but I wanted to wait longer while more info became available this stuff is very pricey with a shirt shelf life

 

[BigJohnny]

So what he did was use “Koch's postulates.” These are four criteria designed to establish a “causative relationship” between a microbe and a disease. He’s went through all four Koch’s postulates more than a hunderd times before he officially announced his discovery.

Let me sum this up so that you can easily understand:

1. He isolated the Philaster parasite/ organism from RTNing coral.

2. Then he cultured it.

(IMO he did multiple sensitivity tests to find the Philaster’s weakness. After its weakness was identified... he developed His products. Then tested them to make sure they would work. Surely he tested with fish, inverts, etc.)

3. Next... he reintroduced the Philaster into healthy acropora samples.

4. Then the healthy acropora coral samples became infected, and they demonstrated RTN themselves.

5. Finally he re-isolated the Philaster parasite from the RTNing corals that were once healthy proving it was the same organisms.

I did the same thing and proved pigs fly. Look here's a video of a pig in the air.

My point is, there's no legit documentation i.e. controlled peer reviewed studies. Hes just saying this stuff and showing images/videos of what could be anything.

Even if there were legit peer reviewed studies, and he had legit credentials, all he would have proven is that these parasites can cause stn/rtn, not they are the sole cause of all stn/rtn ever lol.

Common...........

 

[Reefnjunkie]

Those tests are what I’m interested in seeing to prove such hard to accept claims- even though it seems to have help me or the coincidence was uncanny

FWIW he’s a very accredited spinal doctor I don’t believe money is the motivation, I’ve spoken to him quite a few times initially

 

[FDAWG]

How much is the magic potion?