ORP Ph and cycle. Too much data during cycle.

[dirtin]

So I am getting back into to the hobby after a 5 year hiatus. Was reefing for over 10 years prior but darn has the hobby evolved since I've been out. I knew that time was going to be a limiting factor and since I am in a different stage in my career then my college days, my new tank is a different experience. My last 2 tanks during a cycle was, load it with cured live rock, wait for ammonia and nitrite go to 0 and do a significant water change once the trits and ammonia reach 0. I now have an apex and get an abundance of data. I know I shouldn't do anything and I won't during the cycle. But since I have all this new data, I want to talk about the chemistry during a cycle. I dosed mag, alk, and Calc in that order when I made the tank wet to try and get to my wanted parameters (1400mg, 9.5alc, 440cal) the magnesium and calcium adjusted as expected but the tank seems to eat the alk. I am not thinking anything is wrong but I find it interesting that maintaining ph and alk during a cycle is not so simple with all of the biology that is going on. Any refers want to comment on cycling and ph and alk?

 

[BeanAnimal]

pH is going to be dependent on many factors and very tied to indoor CO2.

Are you running a skimmer or do you plan to? That will help bring it up a bit and stabilize it.

 

[taricha]

in addition to external CO2 from people/indoor air as mentioned...

nitrification itself is an acid-producing process.

(from Randy nitrite article)

additionally if there's decomposition of organics - say old style "let a shrimp rot in the tank" cycling, that also lowers pH by conversion of organics to CO2.

 

[javajaws]

As far as your alk - have you double and triple checked your salinity? Might be a good idea to get an early ICP test to compare to your testing regimen and make sure they agree.

 

[brandon429]

I like to give specific cycle completion dates for my pattern threads.

You've seen that all cycle training currently focuses strictly on chemistry and open-ended waits, but there's also a way to name the specific date your cycle will be ready using no chemistry and no open-ended waits...we get the ready date from hundreds of tanks that were already tested using your particular cycling approach.

so, how are you cycling here? doesn't sound like live rock is going to be used, is this a dry rock system? describe your arrangement and I'll tell you what day it will carry fish. these are fun to work, cycle prediction runs.


why does this new way matter? because you get a specific date that your fish disease preps should start, the old ways don't even discuss those.

your challenge is preventing fish disease, not getting the cycle done. that's what's changed in the last 20 years: skip preps, lose your fish by December (the fish disease forum shows a clean 8 mo average to losses stemming from no disease preps)

new cycling is all about your disease preps, and it's fun to discuss your chemistry too. I always learn good things from Taricha's posts/those like his showing equations that apply to us etc.

 

[Spare time]

Make sure to not worry about pH or alk during cycling.

 

[exnisstech]

I don't monitor pH. But I do test it once every year or two.

 

[BeanAnimal]

your challenge is preventing fish disease, not getting the cycle done. that's what's changed in the last 20 years:

I don’t know that anything has changed other than maybe more awareness now about disease. That said, what is has not likely changed are the number of people who are actually willing to go through the steps required. Most people do and always will buy and dunk. Fish, coral, inverts, rock, whatever.

Begging the question; if one insists on QT and prophylactic treatment, does the “cycle time” in the display even matter? It (the display) will be ready long before treatment in QT is over.

new cycling is all about your disease preps,

IMHO disease and cycling have little to do with each other.

 

[brandon429]

no in my opinion there is no distinction between quick cycling/ammonia control only cycling/or long-term 3 mo cycling where all parameters are in perfect compliance and have been repeatedly load challenged

skip basic disease vectoring controls, get flukes or crypto mighty fast. maybe even uronema if chromis are involved/it happens. in my opinion reef tank cyclers should focus most on disease preps since that's where the big consequence exists.

reef tank cycles can be very exact nowadays, and are useful compared to open-ended wait approaches. there's no benefit to long-term cycling regarding disease control, having a planned order of ops ready for your stocking is far more important (do we stock fish first, or corals first, then fish? how does that impact cyclers?

 

[brandon429]

however

the chemistry of it all is fascinating to read I like seeing where T points out acid generation I like to see the breakdown.

working with predictable timeframes to carry large bioloads reliably is the detail I like to work with the most. I can usually get prediction practice by popping into planning reef tank threads/cycle prep threads/

 

[brandon429]

= laying down timeframes that I hope to get seneye-audited one day. for each cycle type, I'm practicing stating the total ammonia compliance date. we all copy someone else's cycle type/ most methods have already been seneye-charted

I just need to await the masses to own them now so they can see the patterns I see.

this becomes handy in tank transfer threads, sandbed swaps and new tank builds/predictive cycle control.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Make sure to not worry about pH or alk during cycling.

Why not maintain alk?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I am getting back into to the hobby after a 5 year hiatus. Was reefing for over 10 years prior but darn has the hobby evolved since I've been out. I knew that time was going to be a limiting factor and since I am in a different stage in my career then my college days, my new tank is a different experience. My last 2 tanks during a cycle was, load it with cured live rock, wait for ammonia and nitrite go to 0 and do a significant water change once the trits and ammonia reach 0. I now have an apex and get an abundance of data. I know I shouldn't do anything and I won't during the cycle. But since I have all this new data, I want to talk about the chemistry during a cycle. I dosed mag, alk, and Calc in that order when I made the tank wet to try and get to my wanted parameters (1400mg, 9.5alc, 440cal) the magnesium and calcium adjusted as expected but the tank seems to eat the alk. I am not thinking anything is wrong but I find it interesting that maintaining ph and alk during a cycle is not so simple with all of the biology that is going on. Any refers want to comment on cycling and ph and alk?

As noted above, cycling and any other scenario where nitrate accumulates deplete alkalinity.

 

[Spare time]

Why not maintain alk?

Not saying to not dose or maintain alk, just that its not important when cycling a tank for the first time. I feel that cycling is often overcomplicated on this site when its one of the simplest things to do with a tank.

 

[taricha]

Not saying to not dose or maintain alk, just that its not important when cycling a tank for the first time. I feel that cycling is often overcomplicated on this site when its one of the simplest things to do with a tank.

yeah. Some people have accurately noted that
1) pH drops due to ammonia oxidation and
2) lower pH & alk can interfere with nitrification
but wrongly conclude "..and so be careful that pH doesn't get too low or the cycle will be harmed"
While 1) and 2) are true, the amount of pH drop from plausible amounts of cycling ammonia is not nearly enough to actually harm a cycle in saltwater.

I think this idea is a carryover from freshwater. Some cycling bacteria sellers have both fresh and saltwater products and it may not be clear that this advice only really makes sense in freshwater context.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not saying to not dose or maintain alk, just that its not important when cycling a tank for the first time. I feel that cycling is often overcomplicated on this site when its one of the simplest things to do with a tank.

Fair enough. The reefer will have to fix it eventually, but waiting is certainly fine.