Old Tank Syndrome
- Thread starter Paul B
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I sure hope you get better soon! I work with a number of people like Dr. Tim on a daily basis and hear talks at conferences from aquaculture folks (ok the aquaculture people generally don't talk at conferences often that I go to but sometimes they do). A considerable amount of Dr. Tim's work is not only looking at strains but what strains are viable in storage conditions and how they can be used for products. When looking to develop bottled bacteria (or bacterial products in general) there are a lot of issues to look at such as survivability, attachment (to new filters), growth, storage conditions, strain compatibility/synergy and the largest is cost to produce. If you start getting into the agriculture words label claims are really hard to get in the USA, products for animals are far more regulated than human supplements and label claims must go through government review and it's very expensive to run the experiments and have the quality of data they want. I am sure not a very fancy scientist (Dr Randy is!) but I have been on some of these government meetings and am the primary inventor on a couple patents related to the molecular side of bacterial inoculants that are used world wide so I have sadly had to lit with lawyers for many hours going over this stuff, haha!
I consider available and usable surface area the same amount - however the term surface area is probably not the best as there is no reason to think small proximity 2D areas wouldn't encourage 3D growth and biofilms, but yes as time goes on it all changes. I would call measureable surface area just that, measurable and not available but for general hobby speak it's fine.
You are correct many things impact bacterial growth, but there a plenty of papers with these species and on thing that is clear is they are very slow growing in the best of situations. Something like a huge dead fish could potentially impair their growth as if ammonia gets too high it's toxic to even bacteria that use it for food.
I don't think will post too much more on this as it feels like beating a dead horse, but I sure hope you make a speedy recover mate!!!
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@hart24601
Back in the day we used to build trickle towers for larger aquarium systems that consisted of a spray head flooding a column filled with plastic bio media. The claim by many during that era was the filter would respond to higher bio loads faster due to the availiblity of oxygen to the bacteria. Is that a valid claim based on your understanding? I also know that "trickle filter" of all types seem to be looked down on by the current Reef community due to Nitrate production. Again is this just casting about or real science? (Elevated Nitrate production) Just asking your educated opinion.
Back in the day we used to build trickle towers for larger aquarium systems that consisted of a spray head flooding a column filled with plastic bio media. The claim by many during that era was the filter would respond to higher bio loads faster due to the availiblity of oxygen to the bacteria. Is that a valid claim based on your understanding? I also know that "trickle filter" of all types seem to be looked down on by the current Reef community due to Nitrate production. Again is this just casting about or real science? (Elevated Nitrate production) Just asking your educated opinion.
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@hart24601
Yes you may be right, I don't have scientific studies or research experiment or experience or data. But at times speaking of my very short experience or knowing about others, It wasn't because of the death of 'THAT ' one big fish the system crashed. It has seldom happened.. Or maybe I don't know much about it.
Your post is like music to my ears, I get to learn. And you are eloquent as Obama. i wouldn't like you to beat a dead horse and commit sin.
I'm feeling a little better now by getting right medication. Thanks homes.
Matter of fact still we don't know complete science behind the reefs. It's complex to know it all..something works for someone and doesn't for other.. Individual systems are unique and different then each other to compare. It can be due to diversified bacterial population of some sort. Or it may differ geographically as well..
What do you think about contact time of Ammonia and bacteria to convert the process?
Yes you may be right, I don't have scientific studies or research experiment or experience or data. But at times speaking of my very short experience or knowing about others, It wasn't because of the death of 'THAT ' one big fish the system crashed. It has seldom happened.. Or maybe I don't know much about it.
Your post is like music to my ears, I get to learn. And you are eloquent as Obama. i wouldn't like you to beat a dead horse and commit sin.
I'm feeling a little better now by getting right medication. Thanks homes.
Matter of fact still we don't know complete science behind the reefs. It's complex to know it all..something works for someone and doesn't for other.. Individual systems are unique and different then each other to compare. It can be due to diversified bacterial population of some sort. Or it may differ geographically as well..
What do you think about contact time of Ammonia and bacteria to convert the process?
Now that sort of system would probably grow aerobic bacteria faster depending on species/strain depending on the ideal oxygen requirements of the specific bacteria. However this is where it gets iffy and a tactic that is used with lots of marketing not just in our hobby. Say just for argument it takes 10 days for that strain of bacteria to double, with the trickle tower it takes 5 days. So on the one hand you could say it doubles the growth rate! Sounds amazing! But it still is slower than what most would find real world useful. I would suspect that is the case here, it probably does speed growth a bit, but I doubt enough to have a meaningful impact in most peoples systems. So it could be a valid claim, but not a useful one.
These are looked down on the reef community as nitrate factories but I feel the reason why has gotten muddied over the years. For the most part all ammonia is going to become nitrate - doesn't matter if it's live rock or trickle filters. The reason people started poo-pooing bioballs and filters like this is they frequently become very dirty and are not easy to clean. The detritus sits there and is not exported via other means or consumed by other organisms in the reef (still eventually becoming nitrates but some is used in biological processes or by microorganism that are skimmed out).
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Paul B
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I think the wet dry filter is still the best filter for a fish only tank. Nitrate factory is a silly concept because we want ammonia to be converted to nitrate as ammonia is very poisonous. The only "problem" with trickle filters is that many people only used that with no other means to eliminate the nitrate. I used a wet dry in my reef for many years but I also used a reverse UG filter and skimmer with Ozone.
That wet dry system is still used by sewage treatment plants
That wet dry system is still used by sewage treatment plants
You are sure right about it being complex and systems differ. My last bit of work has been with microbial populations, many microbes can't be cultured but next gen sequencing has come far enough to really look at entire populations for the 1st time. Before you took a swab and look at what grew if you get the media and conditions right, it didn't give a very good picture and the vast majority of bacteria are unculturable right now and it gave no information about the complex interdependent communities that rely on each other that in the past couple decades has become clear how important they are.
It's still very expensive but bigger places can afford it. It's the amazing revolution happening right now in the microbial world because if you snag and preserve the DNA you can get a snapshot of the populations (via complex bioinformatics) and how they change and differ (with more samples). That is great because something even like the nitrogen cycle in our tanks may consist over different species and pathways even between tanks but you just can't replicate that in another environment like a lab. Then you can even do another next gen RNA sequencing to look at what genes are being expressed (as even if a population is there you don't know what it's doing) combine that information and you get a really great picture of that point of time. It has totally changed microbiology but it's expensive and time consuming and most universities can't afford that yet, but they will get there.
The contact time with ammonia is an interesting topic, and I don't really know. I would think with the flow rate in our tanks being so high the ammonia concentration is somewhat steady at a low level so the contact time isn't super important if the water passing the microbe isn't really slow or stagnant.
Lowell
To me, any benefit with a system like that implies we have a deficit in ability to nitrify without using the sprayer setup or without bioballs. Im not against bioballs, they retain less detritus than live rock does and live rock isn't denitrifying that much for us anyway or nobody would be having to dose wodka into their tank.
Any motion within the tank moving across pretty much any surface area beyond glass plates will nitrify a fish and reef bioload, and even glass plates will nitrify a given amount of bioload depending on test variables.
I've never seen a reef setup matured, using any form of bare bones surface area, that couldn't process the same bioload it did with nine canister filters
We deal in surface area overages that much (correspondingly we then deal with nitrates, dosers, carbon dosers, ATS export even beyond nitrification)
only fish processing or holding facilities need the excess aerobic capability or maybe a zoo setup, I can't think of any home systems that require beyond a few chunks of live rock for the whole setup.
To me, any benefit with a system like that implies we have a deficit in ability to nitrify without using the sprayer setup or without bioballs. Im not against bioballs, they retain less detritus than live rock does and live rock isn't denitrifying that much for us anyway or nobody would be having to dose wodka into their tank.
Any motion within the tank moving across pretty much any surface area beyond glass plates will nitrify a fish and reef bioload, and even glass plates will nitrify a given amount of bioload depending on test variables.
I've never seen a reef setup matured, using any form of bare bones surface area, that couldn't process the same bioload it did with nine canister filters
We deal in surface area overages that much (correspondingly we then deal with nitrates, dosers, carbon dosers, ATS export even beyond nitrification)
only fish processing or holding facilities need the excess aerobic capability or maybe a zoo setup, I can't think of any home systems that require beyond a few chunks of live rock for the whole setup.
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I think this is pretty much spot on. Going to the FW world though they do need some pretty slick nitrifying solutions with monster fish, as frequently those are kept in bare tanks and have insane biomass and nutrient import. It's not uncommon for "monster keepers" to have a collective biomass of dozens of pounds + and feed the system a couple pounds of food a day - even when scaling the tank down it's a huge bioload and some of those fish poo big enough to think it was a person! I don't know if we will ever see that sort of trend come to reef tanks for FOWLR (I don't think it has yet for that large of fish) but then trickle (well more wet/dry or a hybrid solution like K1) might come back as they are still used in some of these large biomass situations. Of course the final product of nitrates are easier to handle in FW with just huge waterchanges.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
When I first started with Reef tanks I made my first filter using trays of dolomite gravel for both the dry and wet section from plans that George Smit published in FAMA magazine. The system worked great but I only had access to soft corals and some LPS and related inverts at the time. I continued to sell and use wet/dry systems both for home and central filter store systems. Again the systems worked great and my customers suvived many power outages without significant losses. I know it seems to have fallen out of fashion but I am tempted to set one up again since I still have a box of plastic media around. I also used the Tunze rail system with great success as well. So I guess the system may not be the problem but the husbandry tactics may have more to due with current success.
I would not hesitate to use a wet/dry system for a retail store holding system in the future. I would of course add U.V. Sterilizers as well....but don't tell anyone since thy have fallen out of fashion also.
Looking forward to a new system build but with all the options I might just use a new Tunze or Reverse Flow like Paul's system. I still can't deceide on the size of aquarium yet but I have a couple sheets of 1/2" acrylic sitting in the shop. I could even go back to a Trickle filter for fun (wet/dry).
I would not hesitate to use a wet/dry system for a retail store holding system in the future. I would of course add U.V. Sterilizers as well....but don't tell anyone since thy have fallen out of fashion also.
Looking forward to a new system build but with all the options I might just use a new Tunze or Reverse Flow like Paul's system. I still can't deceide on the size of aquarium yet but I have a couple sheets of 1/2" acrylic sitting in the shop. I could even go back to a Trickle filter for fun (wet/dry).
Hey you mentioned a neat clue even still above, power outages. it seems that to have less extra surface area is safer in a power outage than mass overages, due to BOD from mass aerobes competing and the organic components that extra surface area always retains (bac fuel). The bare bottom tank with just the right amount of live rock is a safer hedge than the DSB (regardless of care method, the enduring double edge sword of active surface area) in places where oxygen will deplete rapidly.
I guess on the counter measure, when it all fires back up the extra surface area system will neutralize the rot faster.
I guess on the counter measure, when it all fires back up the extra surface area system will neutralize the rot faster.
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Paul, I am not as old as Noah but I hear he's pretty good with boats.
I've been a hobbyist since the 1970s too, with a break in between for another hobby - children raising.
I've come back to the hobby and them cursed SPS.
Yours is the first piece of aquatic literature that has made me laugh.
I've been a hobbyist since the 1970s too, with a break in between for another hobby - children raising.
I've come back to the hobby and them cursed SPS.
Yours is the first piece of aquatic literature that has made me laugh.
Oscaror
Back In It
Servillius
Active Member
The Rule Against Perpetuities is a favorite of yours?Old Tank Syndrome
Is this a myth? Something we heard about in the deep abbesses of when the hobby started (I think it was on a Tuesday) Is this something we need to worry about. Like we don't have enough to worry about with the heartbreak of psoriasis and wondering if we will be accepted into the "Hair club for men".
I realize the vast majority of tanks crash, or for some reason fail to thrive for more than a few years. Why is that? Is it due to Old Tank Syndrome, Wikileaks, or something else?
Tanks crash for all sorts of reasons, disease (affecting the tank, or us) financing is a big one. it could be a decision to buy another nose ring or a blue legged hermit crab. It could be lack of interest, (I think that is a big one) Sometimes our spouse just doesn't want a tank, although I don't know why one would have such a spouse.
Many tanks crash due to a power failure, flood, earthquake, hair algae, cyano or my favorite RAP music.
I think I have the answer to all these problems. Noah and I used to sit on the Ark and ponder these things.
I think lack of interest is the biggest factor and probably the hardest to rectify. If you don't have any interest it is probably better if you quit and go on to other things. It is silly to keep pouring money into something that you lost your love for. Of course all of us lose interest in some parts of the hobby over time. For instance when my fish spawn for the first time, I get all excited and send out cigars. Then I sit up all night and feed and name each baby. But after that fish spawns many times, I will not get as excited, (but I will run out of names) although I will still never lose my interest as I still find it fascinating. When those things happen, I embrace other parts of the hobby like building my own rocks or spawning different fish.
Re aquascape. Don't worry about mini cycles (Whatever that is) Just remove your rock and corals and put them in a different place. It's a hobby, have fun with it. If a coral dies, better it than you. You need to keep up the interest.
Finances seems to be a big problem, but I have not found that to be a problem. Of course if you are the type of person that must have the biggest, best and most expensive new, shiny thing that comes out, you of course can go broke. My 100 gallon tank costs me $960.00 a year to keep. That is a lot of money but I spend more on pictures of Supermodels or those little plastic things on the end of my shoelaces.
I feed clams and live blackworms. The worms cost a bit but the clams are very cheap. If you live in Arizona or Utah, the clams may be a little high, I really don't know. I change water about 5 times a year. I realize a lot of people feel the need to change an ounce of water every three hours, but that is IMO not necessary unless you feed your fish a side of beef twice a day.
Rap music, I have no control of but it is not played in my house and if it was, I would wrap my tank (and my head) in bubble wrap.
Lets talk about crashing. Except for disease (which I wrote about elsewhere) the biggest cause of "Old Tank Syndrome" is caused by bacteria, or lack of them. Bacteria run our tanks and we are just here for the bacteria to make fun of, especially if we wear a Speedo near our tank. Bacteria clean the water for us for free. Changing the water can help the bacteria, but if we change it too much, it can make the bacteria mad. There is a reason new tanks with all new water are not very healthy. But, that doesn't mean we should stop changing water.
The bacteria, eventually need our help. In the sea they don't need help because someone there helps them. Mother Nature. In the sea Mother Nature provides typhoons. I also provide typhoons in my tank as much as I can. Let me explain.
The bacteria rely on surface area to do their job. They also need food in the form of nutrients and "some" but not all bacteria need oxygen. Bacteria live on all surfaces, even (unfortunately) your girlfriends nose ring. If you tried to keep fish alive in a bare tank, you would have to change the water almost daily because there is not enough room for bacteria to grow. This is also why a tank with a bare bottom can not support as many fish as a tank with gravel. It is just math. I am not too good in Math but the bacteria are great at it. The more spaces they have, the more they will multiply. They will grow on top of each other, but only up to a limit. Suppose you were to try to live like that. Think about it. Bacteria need surfaces and in our tanks, the surfaces are mostly on the substrate and the rocks. Not just on the rocks, but inside them, in the pores. The "rocks" we use in our tanks are not even real rocks. They were built by microscope creatures living on the rock. The creatures exuded this material and in the process of doing this, the "rock" was built full of pores. Inside these pores live the bacteria. The aerobic bacteria live near the surface and use the oxygen abundant there. The anaerobic bacteria live deeper in the pores and need far less, if any oxygen. I think they have larger noses to utilize the inadequate supplies of oxygen. Those are the bacteria that convert the nitrates to nitrate gas that escapes.
The problem is over time, those pores clog and those anaerobic bacteria, although can live in clogged pores, have no access to our tank water so they can't process wastes. When that happens, they can no longer do the macarana or any dance so they will die and become part of the stuff that is clogging the pores.
This is a 2" sewer pipe I removed from my house. All pores will eventually clog like this given enough time. No, Liquid Plumber will not fix this.
This is where we come in. As I said the sea has Mother Nature, but we have power filters. I use a diatom filter which is just a canister filter with a powerful pump. It also removes tiny particles much smaller than a normal canister filter but we do not need to remove particles that small. We mainly need something with a strong pump. You can use a turkey baster but that is a Sissy way to do it and most of the bacteria will just laugh at you. You may have to put your ear to the glass to hear them, but trust me, they are laughing.
I use one of these every day, mostly for target feeding but I also blow off the rocks. As I said, this is a Sissy way to do it and it won't make up for the major cleaning with the filter.
On the outflow of my power filter I install a nozzle. I make that out of one of those little green plastic things that florists put carnations in to keep them alive. You can get them from a florist for a few cents. They look like a small funnel but the hole is closed so you need to drill a hole in the small end. If there are no florists near you, move or make something else. This is not rocket science just find a way to make the end of the outflow hose smaller.
You can see those green plastic things here. I also use them to build venture valves.
This will provide a strong stream of water that you carefully aim at your exposed rock surfaces. Do not hit your corals with it unless you want to buy new corals or make soup. If your corals are moveable, lift them to get under them. Power wash all the surfaces you can and you will be amazed at how much stuff comes out of the rocks. You will also be amazed at how many things your spouse can come up for you to do instead of doing this.
In my tank I use a reverse under gravel filter (OK, stop laughing) so I can do this to my gravel, but if you have sand, be very careful. If you have a DSB, IMO your tank won't last more than ten or twelve years anyway so you are on your own, but at least do it to the rocks.
I only perform this maintenance once or twice a year and so far, after 45 years, it seems to have worked. Of course I never play Rap music especially if I am wearing my Speedo.
When you are done, you can take a video of your tank and show it to your neighbors on your projector.
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Paul B
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I am not sure how Perpetuities fits into my discussion, but I am not that smart so maybe I missed it. 
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