captainsmitty
Active Member
Just so I am clear you are recommending the usage of reverse flow undergravle plates? I have used that system on freshwater with a great deal of success.
Old Tank Syndrome
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
- Tagged users None
OP
OP
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I didn't say that. I said I use one and have great success with it, but it's up to you if you want to use one. Remember everyone will tell you are nuts and you will have to wait 40 years before you can ask:
Everyone here with an older, healthier tank, raise your hand........Higher.
Everyone here with an older, healthier tank, raise your hand........Higher.
captainsmitty
Active Member
the reason i am asking is that I am replacing a plastic 29 gal tank ( running 9 years with a DSB) which has gotten scratched up with a 37 gal (same base size just taller) all glass tank and want to make sure i get it right. I am not opposed to the undergravle filter plates and am even open to setting up as a reverse flow. am also adding a sump to the new configuration but is just a basic tank that fits underneath in the stand. I am debating upon partitioning it or not.
How fascinating is it that OTS syndrome and detrital storage isn't the same in freshwater systems...to me that's an amazing dichotomy
effects of ammonia at varying pH differences plays a role in toxicity between the systems
my planted tank is 15 yrs old, and has a sandbed designed to perpetually -take on- and trap waste (from shrimps) the polar opposite of what we want here, so that my plants live on forever. it ages better in time, not worse, and is algae free in spite of.
OTS for sandbeds in the planted tank can still manifest as chlorosis/plant loss due to collapse of the bed and microchannels being stopped up (depending on the type of substrate used, the fancier ones collapse sooner) and eventually nutrient exchange suffers. But there's ways to use harder materials for the sandbed/planted bed part, age them correctly, then they do not collapse over time... the intergrain areas remain open for access, and the bed never expires...never. neato.
effects of ammonia at varying pH differences plays a role in toxicity between the systems
my planted tank is 15 yrs old, and has a sandbed designed to perpetually -take on- and trap waste (from shrimps) the polar opposite of what we want here, so that my plants live on forever. it ages better in time, not worse, and is algae free in spite of.
OTS for sandbeds in the planted tank can still manifest as chlorosis/plant loss due to collapse of the bed and microchannels being stopped up (depending on the type of substrate used, the fancier ones collapse sooner) and eventually nutrient exchange suffers. But there's ways to use harder materials for the sandbed/planted bed part, age them correctly, then they do not collapse over time... the intergrain areas remain open for access, and the bed never expires...never. neato.
Last edited:
bump3rb33tl3
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2016
- Messages
- 767
- Reaction score
- 1,497
OMG! I love that second picture, did you make that?Yes, like Bubonic Plague sick. I love it
Lately I have been in SteamPunk Mode so that's all I think about. Supermodels and Steam Punk.
OP
OP
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
Smitty, as I said, it is up to you but if you run one do it as I said very slow. I tried many configurations over many years before I figured it out. You also need to stir it up once or twice a year.
Brandon, Wastes from shrimp?
Bump3rb33tl3, of course I made that. Where would you buy something like that?
I love the thing, the valve turns on the air pump that sends bubbles through it. The next one I build will also have smoke coming out the top and it will be much larger for the front of my house. It's on here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/steampunk-lamp.277500/
my setup for freshwater is an attempt on a true self sustaining ecosystem... hands off as possible. its an acrylic sphere size of a beach ball that houses a bog setup. plants come out the top, plus there's aquatic plants in the wet portion, and a thirteen inch deep sandbed under it
started about 2003
that freshwater setup is balanced to self run... only occasional ferts needed and spring water added as topoff. I don't think any decently-diverse system can be truly hands off, even the barren ecospheres have a finite lifespan but it seems that basic maintenance can be distilled down to topoff and occasional micro/macro nutrient additions only to support the plants, and then all the shrimp (cherry shrimp) live off the plants and natural plant decay.
there is export, its plant mass which comes out 15 feet from the bowl at times depending on trimmings. the substrate continually takes on mass, but plant aerenchyma keep the bed oxidized, healthy unlike marine bed dynamics and the plants take on degrading mass notably.
shrimp waste is the loading system for the sandbed, its perpetual but in tiny traces, no fish are in the system. Its tiny shrimp only, and about 15 feet of plants out the top to use it all up..slowly, over the years. I truly think it will self run forever with the minimal care, and its neat how the longevity in marine tanks vs planted tanks can be so oppositely earned.
the planted system is benefitted by full detritus retention the life of the system.
the marine system would go eutrophic and choke out, opposing sandbed dynamics all tied into OTS in my opinion.
started about 2003
that freshwater setup is balanced to self run... only occasional ferts needed and spring water added as topoff. I don't think any decently-diverse system can be truly hands off, even the barren ecospheres have a finite lifespan but it seems that basic maintenance can be distilled down to topoff and occasional micro/macro nutrient additions only to support the plants, and then all the shrimp (cherry shrimp) live off the plants and natural plant decay.
there is export, its plant mass which comes out 15 feet from the bowl at times depending on trimmings. the substrate continually takes on mass, but plant aerenchyma keep the bed oxidized, healthy unlike marine bed dynamics and the plants take on degrading mass notably.
shrimp waste is the loading system for the sandbed, its perpetual but in tiny traces, no fish are in the system. Its tiny shrimp only, and about 15 feet of plants out the top to use it all up..slowly, over the years. I truly think it will self run forever with the minimal care, and its neat how the longevity in marine tanks vs planted tanks can be so oppositely earned.
the planted system is benefitted by full detritus retention the life of the system.
the marine system would go eutrophic and choke out, opposing sandbed dynamics all tied into OTS in my opinion.
Thank you!Nick, What long thin turkey baster things? I don't see no long neck turkey baster things!
You can get them at "Marine Depot" They are called coral feeders.
I would say you have a feeder hoarding problem, but I'm not going to be the one to try and stop you.
bump3rb33tl3
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2016
- Messages
- 767
- Reaction score
- 1,497
Cool, thanks for the link....think I found my (I really mean "my husbands") new project!
OP
OP
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
Ljaus, I don't follow the trends because when I started the only trends were mine. There was no one else in the hobby then and if there were, they were in different states. I didn't find anyone for years who was in the salt hobby in those days. Then someone, probably Brian Williams or Lady GaGa invented the internet and everyone now has an opinion on a different trend the hobby should follow.
I still go by my own ways being right or wrong because I am also stubborn and hard headed. Anything I learned I learned through my own mistakes, which were quite numerous, or spending time with these creatures in their home in the sea. That is where you get the best knowledge from, not the internet or facebook.
But I still have the passion for fish and of course Supermodels.
I still go by my own ways being right or wrong because I am also stubborn and hard headed. Anything I learned I learned through my own mistakes, which were quite numerous, or spending time with these creatures in their home in the sea. That is where you get the best knowledge from, not the internet or facebook.
But I still have the passion for fish and of course Supermodels.
While this may ultimately be true, I have not seen many people, any actually, run such a high bioload in their reef tank that they have constant free ammonia or nitrite levels which is resolved by adding more colonization space for bacteria. It would take a phenomenal phosphate and nitrate removal system if someone pushed their bioload that high in a reef tank. Unless something dies or an accident happens I see very few reef tanks (cycled) where ammonia is a problem and when a fish dies that sudden spike of ammonia always happens despite the available "room" because the bacterial population has grown to meet the food source that is added daily (fish waste and uneaten food) and does not exist with a buffer of extra population no matter the surface area because they need to eat.
Ljaus
Valuable Member
Ljaus, I don't follow the trends because when I started the only trends were mine. There was no one else in the hobby then and if there were, they were in different states. I didn't find anyone for years who was in the salt hobby in those days. Then someone, probably Brian Williams or Lady GaGa invented the internet and everyone now has an opinion on a different trend the hobby should follow.
I still go by my own ways being right or wrong because I am also stubborn and hard headed. Anything I learned I learned through my own mistakes, which were quite numerous, or spending time with these creatures in their home in the sea. That is where you get the best knowledge from, not the internet or facebook.
But I still have the passion for fish and of course Supermodels.
Spoken like a true hobbyist. I've learnt more by watching my own tank than anything else.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@TherealplexiG ,
Give it up man...Paul will never go to acrylic tanks...even if you send him one for free. He has an unusual glass tank with silicone that never degrades as far as we know. If he moves it now it will surely leak...Lol. I think the silicone is replaced by supermodels from time to time. You know the term silicone sisters? A mystery I know, but what can you say about a tank that has lasted so long. Silicone from a bygone era I guess. Another of Paul's closely guarded secrets that and the long list of supermodel repair and aquarium service girls. Keep it real G.
Give it up man...Paul will never go to acrylic tanks...even if you send him one for free. He has an unusual glass tank with silicone that never degrades as far as we know. If he moves it now it will surely leak...Lol. I think the silicone is replaced by supermodels from time to time. You know the term silicone sisters? A mystery I know, but what can you say about a tank that has lasted so long. Silicone from a bygone era I guess. Another of Paul's closely guarded secrets that and the long list of supermodel repair and aquarium service girls. Keep it real G.
TherealplexiG
Well-Known Member
@Lowell Lemon
LOL.. You're getting funnier than Paul...
LOL.. You're getting funnier than Paul...
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
I am trying to learn from the master.
Vincent100
Valuable Member
Always love reading what you have to say and try to take in as much as I can
You had me laughing a good few times
Gonna have to try wearing speedo trunks and a nose ring while messing with the tank and I might even go against what you said and do it all while blearing out rap lol
Keep up the good work you do for all of us and this site.... even gave you a smiley face lol
You had me laughing a good few times
Gonna have to try wearing speedo trunks and a nose ring while messing with the tank and I might even go against what you said and do it all while blearing out rap lol
Keep up the good work you do for all of us and this site....
even gave you a smiley face lol
OP
OP
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I don't know who made the silicon for my tank but it has kept it from leaking since my Mother N Law bought me that tank in 1979 or so. It is an odd shaped tank at 100 gallons (I think it is really 90 gallons) it is 6' long and I think 14" high.
As for a bare bottom being able to support as many fish I think of it this way. Think of bacteria (which are plants) as tiny sponges that can soak up either nitrates, ammonia, nitrite or Coca Cola. A sponge can hold a little or a lot of liquid just as bacteria can. When a sponge or bacteria absorb more, like us, they expand. A grain of gravel can contain 9,783,246 individual bacteria (yes I made that number up) but if that number was correct, the same flat area of a piece of glass can hold only 2,783,246 bacteria. (also made up) But whatever the quantity is, the gravel can contain much more bacteria. Now we don't just use one layer of gravel, we use gravel maybe 200 grains thick. Now doing the math in my head, carry the 7 etc I come up with 19,566,492 individual bacteria living on the same footprint as those 2,783,246 bacteria were living on that flat piece of glass. Multiply that by the bottom area of a tank and I can't do the math but there are billions of more bacteria on gravel or sand than a flat piece of glass.
Now you mentioned that all is well unless something dies or there is an accident. Do you know how many accidents and how many times things died in my tank in the 45 years it has been running?
If my tank was bare bottom it would have crashed dozens of times. It didn't because all those skinny bacteria living in my reverse undergravel filter with all that water flowing through it have an enormous appetite and can "absorb" many times their weight in wastes. They, like most bacteria can also double in numbers in a few hours. I wish my tomatoes would grow so fast.
In a bare bottom tank those bacteria are already practically filled with wastes so there is little room for accidents or things dying.
I will give a few examples. Many years ago I kept a very large carpet anemone. The thing took up almost a quarter of the bottom of my tank. We were away, the thing got stuck in an intake and croaked. The tank stunk like a dead cat and you could not see anything in there. I think some fish died (I don't remember) but in a day, the tank cleared up and there was no problem. Another time I had an urchin collection business "Urchin Searchin Enterprise" where I would SCUBA dive for urchins to sell to hobbiests. I had too many for my chilled tank so I put 24 of them in my reef. The next morning they must have noticed the Supermodel I had feeding the tank so they all decided to spawn at once. The water looked like Half and Half. I could have made Pina Colada's out of it. I diatom filtered the water and nothing happened. Try that with a bare bottom.
Many times in those years our power went out and was out for days. Nothing happened.
I think this is the girl who was feeding my tank that day with the urchins.
As for a bare bottom being able to support as many fish I think of it this way. Think of bacteria (which are plants) as tiny sponges that can soak up either nitrates, ammonia, nitrite or Coca Cola. A sponge can hold a little or a lot of liquid just as bacteria can. When a sponge or bacteria absorb more, like us, they expand. A grain of gravel can contain 9,783,246 individual bacteria (yes I made that number up) but if that number was correct, the same flat area of a piece of glass can hold only 2,783,246 bacteria. (also made up) But whatever the quantity is, the gravel can contain much more bacteria. Now we don't just use one layer of gravel, we use gravel maybe 200 grains thick. Now doing the math in my head, carry the 7 etc I come up with 19,566,492 individual bacteria living on the same footprint as those 2,783,246 bacteria were living on that flat piece of glass. Multiply that by the bottom area of a tank and I can't do the math but there are billions of more bacteria on gravel or sand than a flat piece of glass.
Now you mentioned that all is well unless something dies or there is an accident. Do you know how many accidents and how many times things died in my tank in the 45 years it has been running?
If my tank was bare bottom it would have crashed dozens of times. It didn't because all those skinny bacteria living in my reverse undergravel filter with all that water flowing through it have an enormous appetite and can "absorb" many times their weight in wastes. They, like most bacteria can also double in numbers in a few hours. I wish my tomatoes would grow so fast.
In a bare bottom tank those bacteria are already practically filled with wastes so there is little room for accidents or things dying.
I will give a few examples. Many years ago I kept a very large carpet anemone. The thing took up almost a quarter of the bottom of my tank. We were away, the thing got stuck in an intake and croaked. The tank stunk like a dead cat and you could not see anything in there. I think some fish died (I don't remember) but in a day, the tank cleared up and there was no problem. Another time I had an urchin collection business "Urchin Searchin Enterprise" where I would SCUBA dive for urchins to sell to hobbiests. I had too many for my chilled tank so I put 24 of them in my reef. The next morning they must have noticed the Supermodel I had feeding the tank so they all decided to spawn at once. The water looked like Half and Half. I could have made Pina Colada's out of it. I diatom filtered the water and nothing happened. Try that with a bare bottom.
Many times in those years our power went out and was out for days. Nothing happened.
I think this is the girl who was feeding my tank that day with the urchins.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
@Paul B
Now that is informative and funny. Did she also repair a leak in your tank?
Now that is informative and funny. Did she also repair a leak in your tank?
Similar threads
