Nutrient Management by “Old School” Reefer

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

schuby said:
I had those yellow and pink sponges in my first tank, started in 2004 will 100% live rock. I was a complete noob and that tank grew SPS so easily.

My current, 2nd tank was started with dry rock in Jan-2019, after leaving the hobby for 3 years (moved from west coast to east coast for work and then back). I foolishly believed posts that there was no difference in dry rock vs live rock. There is a huge difference: everything takes longer to and the tank has been far more fragile. I've been added bio-diversity with several shipments from IPSF.com and feeding my tangs fresh clams.

I really miss all the sponges and amazing life that was in that first tank on the live rock. I clearly remember being amazed to discover something that I had never seen before, even after several years.

I quit using a protein skimmer when I realized that the skimmate was food for the tank. I designed all my systems to promote excessive gas exchange eliminating necessity for foam fractionator. By removing protein skimmer & filter sock in sump, filter feeders dramatically increased throughout the system.

Ways to increase gas exchange:

HuduVudu · Dec 18, 2020

schuby said:
On another topic, I'm interested in your logic for removing your skimmer. Can you explain?

I have been using skimmers since 1995 or so. I had the mentality that most do that it is filter/cleaning your water. I had always believed that you needed to do that. Kind of a waste managment type of thinking. Then came live rock (for me 2002). This was well after my three years in the Philippines and what I saw there. It slowly began to sink in for me that the rock was doing the filtering/cleaning, and that I didn't need to do it mechanically. I began to see the protien skimmer as gas exchange only. It was irritating to me to see my diversity slowly die away and I attributed that to the skimmer, right or wrong. During my failed attempt at a salt water aquarium store, I implemented a tank that was a huge success for one and only one thing ... gas exchange. I had never seen anything like it. It was a 175 gallon and plumbed it with an Dolphin Ampmaster and the outputs came from the bottom of the tank. This created a water motion that I believe to be the most conducive to gas exchange. It was amazing. I had a powder blue that had ich and was struggling. I put him in that system, and he cleared up in a few days. At first I didn't make the leap that I no longer needed skimmers. Later though as I thought about what was being stripped out I got it. It is tough if I can't implement a closed system like the one that I had and my 20 breeder is just such a system. I only implemented the skimmer because gas exchange was horrendous and I needed something to help the fish. Now I have found a nice work around, that keeps the surface clear of scum and adds some gas exchange.

I guess I have gone to the hyper-biological thinking. That is kind of why I implemented the digester. I want to do everything through biology. I find biological approaches tend to be really stable and not prone to catastrophe. I still have to use mechanical approaches for some things but if I can remove them and set up a biological approach, I will definitely favor the biological approach.

Kind of long winded but that is how I arrived at a no skimmer approach.

EDIT: My tank eats nitrates so I am not really concerned about a build up of "nutrients" in the tank.

HuduVudu · Dec 18, 2020

@Subsea how are you feeding your tank? I have really kewl sponges from my rock but I am slowly losing them. I feed 20ml of phyto everday, but I am still losing the sponges that came on the rock.

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

HuduVudu said:
@Subsea how are you feeding your tank? I have really kewl sponges from my rock but I am slowly losing them. I feed 20ml of phyto everday, but I am still losing the sponges that came on the rock.

I feed live mussels each day to tank, HEB seafood counter will break a bag open at about $0.10 a mussel. Between the 120G & 75G I feed 4 mussels every other day. I also feed Reef Roids, Coral Sprint & Reef Brite

schuby · Dec 18, 2020

@Randy Holmes-Farley has said that he dosed Silicate to feed his sponges.

HuduVudu · Dec 18, 2020

I saw that. Thinking about getting some play sand from Home Despot.

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

HuduVudu said:
I saw that. Thinking about getting some play sand from Home Despot.

That is one way. I used quartz (silica) sand on an AIO with no issues.

I stumbled into silica in my groundwater which is my makeup water,
Trinity Aquifer was a shallow inland sea full of diatoms. Yes, you need silica for the sponges.

tripdad · Dec 18, 2020

Subsea said:
That is one way. I used quartz (silica) sand on an AIO with no issues.

I stumbled into silica in my groundwater which is my makeup water,
Trinity Aquifer was a shallow inland sea full of diatoms. Yes, you need silica for the sponges.

Just as info.....most GFO claims to remove silicates along with phosphate.

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

tripdad said:
Just as info.....most GFO claims to remove silicates along with phosphate.

I have containers of unopened phosphate resin.

HuduVudu · Dec 18, 2020

tripdad said:
Just as info.....most GFO claims to remove silicates along with phosphate.

LOL I want phosphates not to get rid of them.

HuduVudu · Dec 18, 2020

Subsea said:
I stumbled into silica in my groundwater which is my makeup water,
Trinity Aquifer was a shallow inland sea full of diatoms. Yes, you need silica for the sponges.

Is Houston on the same aquifer?

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

HuduVudu said:
Is Houston on the same aquifer?

No. My well is 1000’ deep. Houston stopped using groundwater 50 years ago when it was realized that Clear Lake & NASA were slowly subsiding.

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

Because of the alkalinity and TDS @ 888 ppm, make up for evaporation is the equivalent of lime water.

Ward Lab results of Trinity Aquifer at 1000’

pH at 7.8
TDS at 888 ppm
Electrical conductivity, mmho/cm at 1.48

Na at 55 ppm
K at 14 ppm
Ca at 130 ppm
Mg at 102 ppm
Total hardness, CaCO3 at 750 ppm
NO3 at < 0.1 ppm
SO4 at 189 ppm
Cl at 34 ppm
CO3 at < 1 ppm
HCO3 at 346
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 at 283 ppm
Boron at 0.33 ppm
Total Nitrogen at 2 ppm
Ortho phosphate at < 0.01 ppm
Total phosphate at < 0.01 ppm
Fe at 0.02 ppm
Mn at < 0.01
NO2 at < 0.1 ppm

< means below detection limit.

Bpb · Dec 18, 2020

Following just because

DaddyFish · Dec 18, 2020

Subsea said:
A friend, @Timfish has done aquarium maintenance & setup for 30 years here in Austin, recently added 10G of water from a healthy established reef tank to clear up reoccurring cloudy water which previously was kept in check with heavy UV sterilizer use. Go figure.

Being relatively new to saltwater, but seasoned in freshwater, I have definitely found myself bewildered and abashed by the predominance of "required systems" that dominate this forum. I for one don't believe that despite all the technology available today (I am a techie) there is such as thing as "artificially balanced nature". And that is what I read many people doing, I think?

I am a big proponent of UV, but not for algae control. I use it as a tool to buy time against parasites. Those parasites are typically imported by my mistakes or impatience or ignorance. I wish there was a better way to reduce the parasite population without nuking all the bacteria and algae in the water column. If you "old school guys" know of such please chime in, I'm all ears, well that's not what SHE says!

To the OP, I am enormously intrigued by your comment about not using a skimmer. Skimmers are the one piece of equipment that I personally refuse. They seem like overpriced, over-marketed, under engineered money traps to me, and for about 18-months I've been doing my best to design systems that do not need a skimmer.

I'm about to start a new tank with a fancy new sump that will be removing particulates, hosting a refugium section, and running a big algae scrubber, but NO skimmer. Talk to me Obiwan, for strong with the force am I.

Subsea · Dec 18, 2020

[I'm about to start a new tank with a fancy new sump that will be removing particulates, hosting a refugium section, and running a big algae scrubber, but NO skimmer. Talk to me Obiwan, for strong with the force am I.]

Removing particulates?

I have not used skimmers for 45 years. When designing skimmerless systems, air exchange is most important when lights in display are out. I maximize aggressive surface circulation in display tank and enhance tumbling & gurgling water in drain from display to sump.

Build Thread - Wet & Salty for Christmas 2017.

Seven month old 120G tank with reverse flow undergravel filter on top with 40G cryptic refugium on bottom.

www.reef2reef.com

On my 120G with 40G algae refugium, the whole compartment is open, so algae filter and refugium are one. Detritus accumulates on bare bottom and is carbon to feed detrivores who feed filter feeders.

Build Thread - 25 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G EcoSystem Mud/Macro

The tank has seen little change in 25 years. Jaubert Plenum was designed to use facultative bacteria in a low oxygen environment to perform denitrification biochemistry. Substrate was 6” deep with false bottom making a Plenum under substrate. Plenum performed well until the introduction of...

www.reef2reef.com

After 25 years, the miracle mud filter accumulated detritus. and was spongy to the touch.

DaddyFish · Dec 19, 2020

Subsea said:
Removing particulates?

I have not used skimmers for 45 years. When designing skimmerless systems, air exchange is most important when lights in display are out. I maximize aggressive surface circulation in display tank and enhance tumbling & gurgling water in drain from display to sump.

Going to give fleece roll filtration a whirl instead of filter socks.

Hmmmm... I'm out of time on my setups. I turn off the GYRE pumps at night and turn them back on at sunrise.

Subsea · Dec 19, 2020

@DaddyFish
The particulates that you are removing with filter socks and rollers are food for detrivors that move carbon up the food chain. I view their use as stripping out a critical component of the microbial loop, which is my only objection to protein skimmers.

I have no rollers, no filter socks, no mechanical filters, no protein skimmer and pristine water.

UV is a tool. I have ambivalent thoughts on continuous use, especially on a new system.

HuduVudu · Dec 19, 2020

@DaddyFish one of the problems I had when I was doing freshwater tanks was shaking the thinking of doing saltwater tanks. Ultimately I couldn't do it so I stopped. One thinking that does not translate well between fresh and salt is gas exchange. Salt water is VERY difficult to get gases disolved into the water. Fresh water is much easier. Good gas exchange through skimmers and/or large flow (there are other ways) is the hallmark of a successful salt water tank.

It is very hard to remove the filtration mindset. The fear that the tank will be "polluted" is intense. This I think is what causes many people problems in biological systems. It is more important IMO to create a biologically balanced loop than to arbitrarly remove things that the aquarist deems as bad.