Not popular but I still use DSB. - pls see below

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Doran

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Ok, everyone knows all the downsides etc. of a DSB, additionally I’m certain to get flamed in supporting the dsb....oh well. Normal. It happens.

The topic/question here is NOT should you use a DSB that’s a debate I have no interest in discussing.

Some background:

I’m a fairly long time Reefer....before skimmers...which doesn’t matter, but gives some context.

I have played with Refugiums- too much work. I also don’t like light in my sump for many reasons. I also played with chaeto reactors....again too much work as without the cleaning it’ll all die off.

I have been running DSBs in my sump where there typically would be a refugium. That noted my two current sumps I laid out by design intending the DSB and they have good volume in the DSB area with smooth flow over the baffles across the dsb.

In summary for this background by setting up the DSB in my sump in an isolated area with low flow across the top I have a healthy and stable anerobic area. There is no need or risk of disturbance. I have zero need for lights and the associated costs or maintenance from various life forms. ... and when well setup it is in my opinion both effective and simple.

Now onto my reason for the post:

I broke down a couple tanks and am setting up another long term tank. I will use the dsb and am setup for this by design in my sump.

What I am trying to verify if the use of a couple of marine pure or bright well bio blocks. Again - here is the context:

The surface area of these products is not in dispute - it’s huge. Their effectiveness may not be clear or with a consensus but I’m not proposing using as is typical. I bring this up again in background as I am not offering an opinion on the bio blocks effectiveness.

What I am proposing is placing a shallow base layer of fine sand, then placing the bio blocks with a couple inches on all sides clear and burying them completely under roughly another 6” of sand above the blocks creating a true anerobic zone within the bio blocks. I cannot see any reason this would not effectively create a huge area of a aberobic zone.
I actually did this when setting up a tank a couple of years ago. After setting up I was a bit uncertain and called marine pure for feedback- they went into panic cya mode and stated they had never considered this and it was not the intended use and they would not recommend this. The reason was simple in my retrospective opinion. CYA, they had never considered, tried nor do they want to promote dsb. But following that call I pulled and tossed the blocks.

I have thought of this setup ever since and I believe I was likely on the right track....hence my post here. What do you think BRS? Is this as I am proposing a very effective denitrification tool, or am I going down the wrong path for reason I am not seeing?
 

Mortie31

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Ok, everyone knows all the downsides etc. of a DSB, additionally I’m certain to get flamed in supporting the dsb....oh well. Normal. It happens.

The topic/question here is NOT should you use a DSB that’s a debate I have no interest in discussing.

Some background:

I’m a fairly long time Reefer....before skimmers...which doesn’t matter, but gives some context.

I have played with Refugiums- too much work. I also don’t like light in my sump for many reasons. I also played with chaeto reactors....again too much work as without the cleaning it’ll all die off.

I have been running DSBs in my sump where there typically would be a refugium. That noted my two current sumps I laid out by design intending the DSB and they have good volume in the DSB area with smooth flow over the baffles across the dsb.

In summary for this background by setting up the DSB in my sump in an isolated area with low flow across the top I have a healthy and stable anerobic area. There is no need or risk of disturbance. I have zero need for lights and the associated costs or maintenance from various life forms. ... and when well setup it is in my opinion both effective and simple.

Now onto my reason for the post:

I broke down a couple tanks and am setting up another long term tank. I will use the dsb and am setup for this by design in my sump.

What I am trying to verify if the use of a couple of marine pure or bright well bio blocks. Again - here is the context:

The surface area of these products is not in dispute - it’s huge. Their effectiveness may not be clear or with a consensus but I’m not proposing using as is typical. I bring this up again in background as I am not offering an opinion on the bio blocks effectiveness.

What I am proposing is placing a shallow base layer of fine sand, then placing the bio blocks with a couple inches on all sides clear and burying them completely under roughly another 6” of sand above the blocks creating a true anerobic zone within the bio blocks. I cannot see any reason this would not effectively create a huge area of a aberobic zone.
I actually did this when setting up a tank a couple of years ago. After setting up I was a bit uncertain and called marine pure for feedback- they went into panic cya mode and stated they had never considered this and it was not the intended use and they would not recommend this. The reason was simple in my retrospective opinion. CYA, they had never considered, tried nor do they want to promote dsb. But following that call I pulled and tossed the blocks.

I have thought of this setup ever since and I believe I was likely on the right track....hence my post here. What do you think BRS? Is this as I am proposing a very effective denitrification tool, or am I going down the wrong path for reason I am not seeing?
There have been a few reports of silicate leeching with siporax in a low oxygen environment, #Lasse was one on his tank, he buried them under several inches of sand. I’m not sure if the marine pure blocks will react the same, but I think they are of a similar construction and material.
 

Hot2na

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Set up a Jaubert plenum...and enjoy deep sand that actually denitrifies without hydrogen sulfide ...
 
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Doran

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I’ll look up the Joubert plenum.....Thx. I still question whether this would work. I know of the silicate/aluminum issues hence the interchangeable blocks between marine pure and Brightwell......

Thx
 

Mortie31

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I’ll look up the Joubert plenum.....Thx. I still question whether this would work. I know of the silicate/aluminum issues hence the interchangeable blocks between marine pure and Brightwell......

Thx
The leeching is well documented, but it appears to get even worse in low oxygen environments, I’d read up on it before you go this way..
 

Hot2na

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I've used all those blocks before going way back to when they first came out....not one ever lowered nitrate the way a plenum/Jaubert sand bed did...
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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Ok, everyone knows all the downsides etc. of a DSB, additionally I’m certain to get flamed in supporting the dsb....oh well. Normal. It happens.

The topic/question here is NOT should you use a DSB that’s a debate I have no interest in discussing.

Some background:

I’m a fairly long time Reefer....before skimmers...which doesn’t matter, but gives some context.

I have played with Refugiums- too much work. I also don’t like light in my sump for many reasons. I also played with chaeto reactors....again too much work as without the cleaning it’ll all die off.

I have been running DSBs in my sump where there typically would be a refugium. That noted my two current sumps I laid out by design intending the DSB and they have good volume in the DSB area with smooth flow over the baffles across the dsb.

In summary for this background by setting up the DSB in my sump in an isolated area with low flow across the top I have a healthy and stable anerobic area. There is no need or risk of disturbance. I have zero need for lights and the associated costs or maintenance from various life forms. ... and when well setup it is in my opinion both effective and simple.

Now onto my reason for the post:

I broke down a couple tanks and am setting up another long term tank. I will use the dsb and am setup for this by design in my sump.

What I am trying to verify if the use of a couple of marine pure or bright well bio blocks. Again - here is the context:

The surface area of these products is not in dispute - it’s huge. Their effectiveness may not be clear or with a consensus but I’m not proposing using as is typical. I bring this up again in background as I am not offering an opinion on the bio blocks effectiveness.

What I am proposing is placing a shallow base layer of fine sand, then placing the bio blocks with a couple inches on all sides clear and burying them completely under roughly another 6” of sand above the blocks creating a true anerobic zone within the bio blocks. I cannot see any reason this would not effectively create a huge area of a aberobic zone.
I actually did this when setting up a tank a couple of years ago. After setting up I was a bit uncertain and called marine pure for feedback- they went into panic cya mode and stated they had never considered this and it was not the intended use and they would not recommend this. The reason was simple in my retrospective opinion. CYA, they had never considered, tried nor do they want to promote dsb. But following that call I pulled and tossed the blocks.

I have thought of this setup ever since and I believe I was likely on the right track....hence my post here. What do you think BRS? Is this as I am proposing a very effective denitrification tool, or am I going down the wrong path for reason I am not seeing?
I would do exactly as you mentioned, but, from under it move some water sometimes. If you can see @Lasse dream build. He moves the water slowly thru bed. Thanks for info and ideas
 
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Doran

Doran

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Re: Joubert - while not directly equal - in theory the huge surface area of a brightwell block ( I am now referencing Brightwell to take the aluminum out of the equation) could act as a plenum of placed directly on the bottom then covered with sand.

Taking this further: Place the block on a screen leaving 1/2" or so under block then fill w/sand. The idea of course being adding surface to counter space restrictions - along with near zero maintenance....

Thoughts?
 

Val Shebeko

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Ok, everyone knows all the downsides etc. of a DSB, additionally I’m certain to get flamed in supporting the dsb....oh well. Normal. It happens.

The topic/question here is NOT should you use a DSB that’s a debate I have no interest in discussing.

Some background:

I’m a fairly long time Reefer....before skimmers...which doesn’t matter, but gives some context.

I have played with Refugiums- too much work. I also don’t like light in my sump for many reasons. I also played with chaeto reactors....again too much work as without the cleaning it’ll all die off.

I have been running DSBs in my sump where there typically would be a refugium. That noted my two current sumps I laid out by design intending the DSB and they have good volume in the DSB area with smooth flow over the baffles across the dsb.

In summary for this background by setting up the DSB in my sump in an isolated area with low flow across the top I have a healthy and stable anerobic area. There is no need or risk of disturbance. I have zero need for lights and the associated costs or maintenance from various life forms. ... and when well setup it is in my opinion both effective and simple.

Now onto my reason for the post:

I broke down a couple tanks and am setting up another long term tank. I will use the dsb and am setup for this by design in my sump.

What I am trying to verify if the use of a couple of marine pure or bright well bio blocks. Again - here is the context:

The surface area of these products is not in dispute - it’s huge. Their effectiveness may not be clear or with a consensus but I’m not proposing using as is typical. I bring this up again in background as I am not offering an opinion on the bio blocks effectiveness.

What I am proposing is placing a shallow base layer of fine sand, then placing the bio blocks with a couple inches on all sides clear and burying them completely under roughly another 6” of sand above the blocks creating a true anerobic zone within the bio blocks. I cannot see any reason this would not effectively create a huge area of a aberobic zone.
I actually did this when setting up a tank a couple of years ago. After setting up I was a bit uncertain and called marine pure for feedback- they went into panic cya mode and stated they had never considered this and it was not the intended use and they would not recommend this. The reason was simple in my retrospective opinion. CYA, they had never considered, tried nor do they want to promote dsb. But following that call I pulled and tossed the blocks.

I have thought of this setup ever since and I believe I was likely on the right track....hence my post here. What do you think BRS? Is this as I am proposing a very effective denitrification tool, or am I going down the wrong path for reason I am not seeing?
Been a long time since you posted this. What has your experience been in the last two years? I am thinking of running a180 gallon and using a 125 gallon underneath as a dsb. Thoughts ?

thanks in advance
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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I would do exactly as you mentioned, but, from under it move some water sometimes. If you can see @Lasse dream build. He moves the water slowly thru bed. Thanks for info and ideas
That's how I would incorporate the deep sand bed. Actually the water I would move underneath, I would have it go through a hundred feet of quarter inch tubing before it reached the bottom of the deep sand bed to remove the oxygen, the speed of water would have to be determined going through the quarter inch tubing so it's not to cause hydrogen sulfide at the end of the hundred feet of tubing. Just an idea
 

Vette67

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That's how I would incorporate the deep sand bed. Actually the water I would move underneath, I would have it go through a hundred feet of quarter inch tubing before it reached the bottom of the deep sand bed to remove the oxygen, the speed of water would have to be determined going through the quarter inch tubing so it's not to cause hydrogen sulfide at the end of the hundred feet of tubing. Just an idea

Sounds like a coil denitrator. I still have one of those I built out of a toilet flange with the knockout still intact and some 3” acrylic tube. It still works, although I took it offline a couple years ago. That was how we made many of our reaction chambers in the 90’s. Now I feel old!
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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Sounds like a coil denitrator. I still have one of those I built out of a toilet flange with the knockout still intact and some 3” acrylic tube. It still works, although I took it offline a couple years ago. That was how we made many of our reaction chambers in the 90’s. Now I feel old!
No comment.....:)
 

Val Shebeko

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That's how I would incorporate the deep sand bed. Actually the water I would move underneath, I would have it go through a hundred feet of quarter inch tubing before it reached the bottom of the deep sand bed to remove the oxygen, the speed of water would have to be determined going through the quarter inch tubing so it's not to cause hydrogen sulfide at the end of the hundred feet of tubing. Just an idea
How exactly does would this be put into say a 6 inch bed of oolite.?
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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How exactly does would this be put into say a 6 inch bed of oolite.?
Simple, connect a 1/2 inch riser to plenum under sand, riser higher than water level plumb 1/4 to riser. Similar to Lassie's design but it supercharges your deep sand bed it works quicker for nitrate reduction. Just need to fine tune.
 

Val Shebeko

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Simple, connect a 1/2 inch riser to plenum under sand, riser higher than water level plumb 1/4 to riser. Similar to Lassie's design but it supercharges your deep sand bed it works quicker for nitrate reduction. Just need to fine tune.
Like a fresh water undergravel?
Do you put ”felt” layer on top before laying down the six inch of sand?
pipe comes up higher then sand or higher then water level?
and then airstone with enough air to maintain positive flow?
Fine tune for rate of flow ? For ?

and final question. Who is Lassie and where do I find a diagram / picture of his design?

thank you, I appreciate your help.

val
 
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