Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate.

[Dburr1014]

Show me any legitimate source saying 1.0+ppm of phosphate is in no way detrimental to your tank that is not a 70 page research paper done by one person.. Kind of hard to believe seeing the ocean has basically 0 phosphates.

My tank is 2+ years strong. Haven't changed my lightning, haven't changed my flow, haven't changed really anything other than the fact corals are growing into each other.. Really the only param fluctuating each month is my nutrients. Sorry for getting frustrated, it is just soo annoying at this point when different hobbyists come in and just "upturn" all the advice I have gotten from everyone else. There's a plethora problems that it could be still, and I just have to make the ecosystem as "good/proper" as possible for the life inside. This thread isnt called "please help me with my corals" - this thread is called "Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate"...

With this idea, I am shooting for a certain nutrient number. I am trying to go as slow as possible not to bother everything. Part of the goal of getting phosphates down, is to help nitrates go up. That alone should be reasoning enough not to accept very high phosphates like this..

Regardless, thank you for chiming in and attempting to help. I also hope the specific corals not doing the best start to improve. For the most part though the tank is looking all right. Have a couple RFAs slowly shrinking which is what is bothering me the most.

From Lou Ekus seminar last weekend at FFM in Connecticut.

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

Show me any legitimate source saying 1.0+ppm of phosphate is in no way detrimental to your tank that is not a 70 page research paper done by one person.. Kind of hard to believe seeing the ocean has basically 0 phosphates.

My tank is 2+ years strong. Haven't changed my lightning, haven't changed my flow, haven't changed really anything other than the fact corals are growing into each other.. Really the only param fluctuating each month is my nutrients. Sorry for getting frustrated, it is just soo annoying at this point when different hobbyists come in and just "upturn" all the advice I have gotten from everyone else. There's a plethora problems that it could be still, and I just have to make the ecosystem as "good/proper" as possible for the life inside. This thread isnt called "please help me with my corals" - this thread is called "Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate"...

With this idea, I am shooting for a certain nutrient number. I am trying to go as slow as possible not to bother everything. Part of the goal of getting phosphates down, is to help nitrates go up. That alone should be reasoning enough not to accept very high phosphates like this..

Regardless, thank you for chiming in and attempting to help. I also hope the specific corals not doing the best start to improve. For the most part though the tank is looking all right. Have a couple RFAs slowly shrinking which is what is bothering me the most.

That's not how it works. If you read it, you will see it's a grand endeavour. Just in chapter 6 you see it's supported by a compilation of studies (20+) that support his thesis and own work. It's a result made by the work of many people.

If you prefer hobbyists words for it, hey here's a youtube video on it. 1.8 mg/l PO4. Maybe you'll believe that more.

The answer to your thread title "Nitrate/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate" is: it is fine.

But okay, I am sorry I upturned the advice you have gotten.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The answer to your thread title "Nitrate/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate" is: it is fine.

But okay, I am sorry I upturned the advice you have gotten.

It's certainly fine to give alternative viewpoints, as you have. I don't agree with you, however.

I agree that one can have a great tank with high phosphate. Might be some issues, but its not the main problem here.

I do not agree that 0 ppm nitrate will be a good plan.

 

[SauceyReef]

From Lou Ekus seminar last weekend at FFM in Connecticut.

Thanks for sharing. This contradicts some of the info I have been being told here. First off, many have been telling me PHOSGUARD is less aggressive of a phosphate remover than GFO. Lou Eku says the opposite. He also states that dosing Nitrate can be dangerous? I hope seeing I am testing for Nitrate constantly this is just helping and not causing problems, and he means that dosing TO MUCH is the potential for danger. @Reef_Curiosity Lou Eku even shows examples in the seminar of the damages that elevated phosphates can cause. I wish he gave an exact amount. I am watching your video you shared now.

Honestly now I am just becoming so confused, it hurts. Contradictions are building up. Everyone is throwing so much different advice its becoming totally overwhelming. Should I just potentially scratch any phosphate remover, and use MicroBacter, or NP pellets? Is there any bacteria addition that focused more on phosphate removal instead of Nitrate? That may be best.

 

[SauceyReef]

That's not how it works. If you read it, you will see it's a grand endeavour. Just in chapter 6 you see it's supported by a compilation of studies (20+) that support his thesis and own work. It's a result made by the work of many people.

If you prefer hobbyists words for it, hey here's a youtube video on it. 1.8 mg/l PO4. Maybe you'll believe that more.

The answer to your thread title "Nitrate/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate" is: it is fine.

But okay, I am sorry I upturned the advice you have gotten.

I'm not exactly sure how it works because reading that research paper seems quite the task ! Not to say its not some high quality research..

And yes you are correct about the video you shared! I am in absolute disbelief.. That tank is running at 1.8 ppm phosphates! Okay I am definitely overreacting right now and have to change my plans... I just thought anything above 1.0+ would be getting dangerous for certain corals, anemones, or inverts sensitive to possible elevated phosphate. I am sorry for getting angry at you. Thanks for sticking with me.

 

[SauceyReef]

In the video you shared they state depending on the depth of the reef, you get a range of .005 - .9ppm of phosphates. I think I should be happy around the .2ppm-.9ppm range. I just want to make sure I am not doing any damage getting/staying there..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for sharing. This contradicts some of the info I have been being told here. First off, many have been telling me PHOSGUARD is less aggressive of a phosphate remover than GFO.

IMO, that has no basis in fact from a chemical perspective.

The reason some folks overdo GFO and no so often phosguard has more to do with the way it is used. phosguard in a rector will also drive phosphate down fast, and GFO in a bag would act very slowly (probably too slowly).

One can always reduce phosphate as slow as you want by using less and less media at once.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In the video you shared they state depending on the depth of the reef, you get a range of .005 - .9ppm. I think I should be happy around the .2ppm-.9ppm range. I just want to make sure I am not doing any damage getting/staying there..

ppm of what? There is no natural situation where a reef has 0.9 ppm of phosphate.

Using the ocean as a guide to nutrients is flawed since reef tanks generally lack the large amount of available particulate foods that many organisms consume. It's a mistake that we reefers made for a long time, wanting to push nitrate and phospathe down to natural levels, and then finding corals did nto do as well as at higher levels.

 

[Dburr1014]

Thanks for sharing. This contradicts some of the info I have been being told here. First off, many have been telling me PHOSGUARD is less aggressive of a phosphate remover than GFO. Lou Eku says the opposite. He also states that dosing Nitrate can be dangerous? I hope seeing I am testing for Nitrate constantly this is just helping and not causing problems, and he means that dosing TO MUCH is the potential for danger. @Reef_Curiosity Lou Eku even shows examples in the seminar of the damages that elevated phosphates can cause. I wish he gave an exact amount. I am watching your video you shared now.

Honestly now I am just becoming so confused, it hurts. Contradictions are building up. Everyone is throwing so much different advice its becoming totally overwhelming. Should I just potentially scratch any phosphate remover, and use MicroBacter, or NP pellets? Is there any bacteria addition that focused more on phosphate removal instead of Nitrate? That may be best.

Did not mean to confuse.
He(Lou) also said that phosphates removers can be used but should be in more of emergencies, not in every day used that so many people choose.
His idea is really that a coral polyp takes up ammonia/ammonium and easily converts it to nitrate. It's the good bacteria that takes up the po4. So understanding this, I see it as not feeding nitrate but fed your fish. They it turn fed the coral polyp what it needs. Also, not worrying so much about po4, let the bacteria do that. But when is to much, to much? This is the question.

I often read here about folks saying above 0.2 Phosphate is bad. I have never had that high so I don't know.

 

[SauceyReef]

ppm of what? There is no natural situation where a reef has 0.9 ppm of phosphate.

Using the ocean as a guide to nutrients is flawed since reef tanks generally lack the large amount of available particulate foods that many organisms consume. It's a mistake that we reefers made for a long time, wanting to push nitrate and phospathe down to natural levels, and then finding corals did nto do as well as at higher levels.

I edited my response, and added phosphates. You can argue with Richard Ross from BRS, I am just going off of what he said lol. Did you watch the video?

Personally, my tank looked best at the first year when my phosphates were lower, and my nitrates were higher. I am just trying to get back to that...

Did not mean to confuse.
He(Lou) also said that phosphates removers can be used but should be in more of emergencies, not in every day used that so many people choose.
His idea is really that a coral polyp takes up ammonia/ammonium and easily converts it to nitrate. It's the good bacteria that takes up the po4. So understanding this, I see it as not feeding nitrate but fed your fish. They it turn fed the coral polyp what it needs. Also, not worrying so much about po4, let the bacteria do that. But when is to much, to much? This is the question.

I often read here about folks saying above 0.2 Phosphate is bad. I have never had that high so I don't know.

I think in this case it was a good use than because my phosphates were creeping up past 1.0+ quite fast (and my tank had some noticeable problems and cyanobacteria blooms). You can see on my build thread if you would like to follow at all. But according to the Richard Ross video and tank, 1.0-2.0 ppm PO4 doesn't seem dangerous at all. I mean, look at that beautiful tank they showed as an example that is at 1.8ppm po4! I am saving this video and showing it to anyone who ever says 1.0ppm-2.0ppm of PO4 is dangerous to corals haha.



I started another thread asking about a pellet or bacteria to transition to that will help remove phosphates, instead of relying on ROWA or PHOSGUARD long term (if anyone wants to follow / chime in). I feel like this goes in accordance with what the Richard Ross BRS video, and Lou Eku seminar are saying.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...-specifically-phosphate.972532/#post-11161932 <---

 

[SauceyReef]

I am still watching the video. They show a time lapse of the tank, and at one point it gets to 2.0ppm - 3.0ppm PO4 and still looks miraculous with a bunch of SPS growing strong.

 

[JimWelsh]

I’m not a chemist but yes they are different. not enough for our purposes though. I started doing it after reading where Randy posted it’s fine.

It's easy to google "calcium nitrate mw" (164) and "potassium nitrate mw" (101). If you use calcium nitrate with the potassium nitrate option, you'll be under-dosing by about 40%.

 

[SauceyReef]

Here is an accumulation of my last tests. These average to every other day. I feel like I’ve taken the biggest knowledge leap of my 15 years in the hobby with this thread! I’m finally at levels that I’m happy with. The large phosphate jump was due to be feeding Reef Roids. Even a tiny bit gives me a large spike! Something to take note of..

 

[Reef_Curiosity]

I'm not exactly sure how it works because reading that research paper seems quite the task ! Not to say its not some high quality research..

And yes you are correct about the video you shared! I am in absolute disbelief.. That tank is running at 1.8 ppm phosphates! Okay I am definitely overreacting right now and have to change my plans... I just thought anything above 1.0+ would be getting dangerous for certain corals, anemones, or inverts sensitive to possible elevated phosphate. I am sorry for getting angry at you. Thanks for sticking with me.

No worries.
Water changes with good salt and source water, especially in a tank that size, will do the best job in all aspects. Don't be afraid of doing 50% at a time. Much cheaper than trying to remove stuff with chemicals too.

Feeding corals is fun, but with so much available PO4, it's not really needed and might just fuel unwanted stuff like aiptasia and excess bristleworms and the like.

If the corals do go pale from N limitation, adding food, amino acids or an extra fish is the easiest IMO.
Best of luck with it

 

[SauceyReef]

No worries.
Water changes with good salt and source water, especially in a tank that size, will do the best job in all aspects. Don't be afraid of doing 50% at a time. Much cheaper than trying to remove stuff with chemicals too.

Feeding corals is fun, but with so much available PO4, it's not really needed and might just fuel unwanted stuff like aiptasia and excess bristleworms and the like.

If the corals do go pale from N limitation, adding food, amino acids or an extra fish is the easiest IMO.
Best of luck with it

I actually found from experience my phosphates will dip down after a 50%-80% water change, but than shoot back up the next day to the original level. I always thought that proved the phosphate had leached into my rock/sand. I think all of this originated from me feeding to much of rods food + reef roids, and not cleaning the rockwork and back chambers enough.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I edited my response, and added phosphates. You can argue with Richard Ross from BRS, I am just going off of what he said lol. Did you watch the video?

RIchard Ross is not associated with BRS and I have talked to him about his tank, both here at Reef2Reef and elsewhere. I am not aware that he and I disagree on anything.

He has a VERY long thread about his tank here:

Rich Ross - Home Tank - guess the phosphate

This tank was built before r2r, here is a link to some links about the build. http://packedhead.net/home-reef/ Current test results: 03-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L 03-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.006 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L 03-17-2017 Phosphate...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I actually found from experience my phosphates will dip down after a 50%-80% water change, but than shoot back up the next day to the original level. I always thought that proved the phosphate had leached into my rock/sand. I think all of this originated from me feeding to much of rods food + reef roids, and not cleaning the rockwork and back chambers enough.

That is likely a correct assumption.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It's easy to google "calcium nitrate mw" (164) and "potassium nitrate mw" (101). If you use calcium nitrate with the potassium nitrate option, you'll be under-dosing by about 40%.

Calcium nitrate has 2 nitrate ions in it.

Calcium nitrate is 75.6% nitrate by weight. Potassium nitrate is 61.4% nitrate.

If you use calcium nitrate with the potassium nitrate option, you'll be overdosing by about 14%.

IMO, that's an insignificant difference.

 

[SauceyReef]

RIchard Ross is not associated with BRS and I have talked to him about his tank, both here at Reef2Reef and elsewhere. I am not aware that he and I disagree on anything.

He has a VERY long thread about his tank here:

Rich Ross - Home Tank - guess the phosphate

This tank was built before r2r, here is a link to some links about the build. http://packedhead.net/home-reef/ Current test results: 03-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L 03-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.006 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L 03-17-2017 Phosphate...

www.reef2reef.com

Oh sorry. I assumed he was with BRS because the youtube video is on BRS TV.

 

[JimWelsh]

Calcium nitrate has 2 nitrate ions in it.

Calcium nitrate is 75.6% nitrate by weight. Potassium nitrate is 61.4% nitrate.

If you use calcium nitrate with the potassium nitrate option, you'll be overdosing by about 14%.

IMO, that's an insignificant difference.

D'oh! Rookie mistake!