NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So week 2 dosage with saturated calcium hydroxide/vinegar, would add 0.3dkh per day. How does that compare to soda ash? Meaning how much soda ash would you need to dose to equal the same dkh per day. Or in other words if I know how much soda Ash I am dosing how would I figure out how much it would need to be reduced to add the same dkh per day?

Also am I correct in saying that the .3dkh from the hydroxide increases ph more than the same dkh from soda ash?

Use this calculator for your tank size (BRS soda ash recipe is Randy DIY #1 in the menu):

Reef Chemistry Calculator

reef.diesyst.com

Hydroxide increases pH about twice as much as the same amount of alk via carbonate (soda ash) but the vinegar itself tends to lower pH.

 

[Harpo]

great write up!

With vinegar being cheap compared to vodka why would I want to use vodka.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

great write up!

With vinegar being cheap compared to vodka why would I want to use vodka.

It is less expensive, but perhaps not as much as one might assume since vinegar (5% acidity) is 8 times more dilute than 80 proof vodka.

 

[1ocean]

It is less expensive, but perhaps not as much as one might assume since vinegar (5% acidity) is 8 times more dilute than 80 proof vodka.

 

[fishRus]

The reason I'm updating the Vinegar and Vodka dosing charts is two-fold:

1. The ramp was unnecessarily slow. There was no perceived benefit to such a tedious ramp, and it led to reefers quitting because they thought carbon dosing didn't work.

2. The ramp did not scale up correctly at all. A 40x larger tank only received 2x the needed dose. (A 1,000-gallon tank only received twice the dose of a 25-gallon tank).

Why should I carbon dose?

We will refer to carbon dosing as adding any readily metabolized organic. Carbon dosing is NOT equal to dosing carbohydrates.

Reef tanks are notoriously carbon-limited. We have an excess of P and N, and the bacteria in our tank lack the carbon to continue consuming nitrogen and phosphorous.

Carbon dosing is a fantastic way to lower nutrients, more specifically nitrate. The reason is three-fold:

1. Organisms such as bacteria & plankton contain much more nitrogen than phosphorous. The red field ratio is 16:1, meaning there are 16 parts nitrogen to 1 part phosphorous.

2. Denitrification is a process that happens in anaerobic conditions (little to no oxygen). These bacteria require an organic to oxidize the nitrate molecule (NO3-) into Nitrogen (N2). They breathe the oxygen that is attached to the nitrate molecule. Thus, there will be NO phosphate consumed in this process.

Here is the equation by @Randy Holmes-Farley :

organic + 124 NO3– + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

3.We have an immense reservoir of phosphate bound to calcium carbonate rocks and sand. To put to pespective, a 50% water change with nutrient-free water will successfully reduce your nutrient values by 1/2. More often than not, the phosphate value will climb right back up near the starting point after a day; PO4 tries to be in constant equilibrium with the bulk water column and calcium carbonate surfaces.


For these reasons, I do NOT recommend dosing carbon solely for controlling phosphates. It is likey to deplete nitrate before seeing phopshates significantly reduce.

What are the benefits of carbon dosing?

Besides reducing nitrate, spurring bacteria is the main benefit. This bacteria can feed many organisms and filter feeds (such as desirable sponges) in a tank. Coals and sponges can directly metabolize acetate. Acetate is one of the highest turnover organic in the ocean. Thus, opting for vinegar can be very natural.

What about other carbon sources such as NP Bacto Balance, NOPOX, or Sugar?

You can carbon dose with NP Bacto Balance or NOPOX, but dosing straight vinegar or vodka is cheaper and readily available in stores.

One caveat is dosing sugar. While it was popular to dose sugar to a tank several decades ago, it has largely fallen out of favor. It tends to "brown out" certain corals. I wouldn't consider dosing sugar.

Vodka is eight times more concentrated, so the vodka chart has the same ramp as the vinegar chart.

What kind of vinegar or vodka should I use?

Plain Distilled vinegar (5% acidity) from the grocery store is best. NOT filtered vinegar.

Unflavored 80 proof vodka (40% ethanol) is adequete.


Instructions and rules to follow when carbon dosing with my charts:

1. Only dose during daylight hours. Carbon dosing will reduce pH and oxygen, so it's wise to dose while those parameters are naturally at their highest.

2. Skimming and good surface agitation is encouraged. If you don't have a skimmer, stay on the lower end of the chart, and don't progress unless it's clear the tank is fine.

3. You can dose vodka in one shot (bolus dosing), but vinegar is best spread-out with a dosing pump throughout the daylight hours.

4. Vinegar and Vodka have the same pH-lowering effect, but vinegar is more upfront, while vodka is all later as it becomes consumed by bacteria. You cannot easily detect the pH drop from vodka, but they are equal when comparing the chart dosages for tank size.

5. You do not need to increase the dose after week 2 if nitrates are reducing earlier.

6. Watch your tank and make observations. Once your nutrients are in line, find a small maintenance dose for your tank. You choose the final dose based on your testing and tank inhabitants.

7. Keep track of nutrients and ensure they don't bottom out. Nitrates won't bottom overnight; you won't wake up on the second day and see 100 ppm turn to 0.00 ppm. It's much more gradual than that.

8. More people notice cyano issues with vodka than with vinegar. If that is the case, switching to vinegar is a wise choice.

Here are the charts. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Read this to learn why some might want to use kalkwasser powder with their vinegar carbon dose:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-vodka-and-vinegar-dosing-charts.1024056/post-12026847

Do you recommend using a phosphate reducing chemical such as Sea Chem. Phosguard with vinegar

 

[Miami Reef]

Do you recommend using a phosphate reducing chemical such as Sea Chem. Phosguard with vinegar

Yes, you can use phosphate removing media with carbon dosing.

Carbon dosing isn’t very effective for phosphates compared to nitrates, so it’s very common to bottom nitrates out well before you lower phosphates substantially.

You can use phosguard or GFO. I prefer GFO since it won’t release aluminum into a tank, but both work for phosphate reduction.

 

[Koleswrath]

Thanks @Miami Reef. I'm a skimmerless bum so I was under the assumption carbon dosing was off limits for me. Now that I think about it it makes complete sense to just keep the dose low. My nitrates aren't a problem so I don't have a need for a large dose anyways. I'm just looking for some natural coral food.
Just a quick clarification:
Your chart mentions not to dilute the vinegar or dose in an ATO. Does that include mixing in some vinegar with a non saturated Kalkwasser solution that is dosed throughout the day?
My tank is only 7 gallons of water so It would be pretty tough to divide up 1.7ml of vinegar and dose throughout the day without diluting.

 

[i0nz]

I’m curious as to how this would apply to NoPOX dosing? If I’m using the recommended dose recommended by Red Sea and not seeing significant results, can I increase my dose? I’m at 6ml per day. I had my dosing pump set to deliver 1ml 6 times in a 24 hour period but I’ve just adjusted it to dose during my photoperiod as you recommended.

Additionally, I’m aware of the fact that the method you posted above is more cost effective yet I find the single solution easier. However would there be any added benefit aside from cost to switching from NoPOX to vodka/vinegar?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Additionally, I’m aware of the fact that the method you posted above is more cost effective yet I find the single solution easier. However would there be any added benefit aside from cost to switching from NoPOX to vodka/vinegar?

NOPOX also contains methanol and isopropanol at low levels.

IMO a likely reason that they are there is to make the ethanol used undrinkable and less subject to regulation and taxation.

I do not see them providing any particular benefit, and I do not know if they do anything undesirable.

Using just one of vodka or vinegar may allow you to select a source that drives less cyano in your tank (which is how I ended up using vinegar and not vodka). Using NOPOX allows no such changes.

But in the end, cost is the primary driver for most folks.

 

[Miami Reef]

Does that include mixing in some vinegar with a non saturated Kalkwasser solution that is dosed throughout the day?

You can mix vinegar in an ATO with kalkwasser. The high pH prevents bacterial growth.

 

[i0nz]

NOPOX also contains methanol and isopropanol at low levels.

IMO a likely reason that they are there is to make the ethanol used undrinkable and less subject to regulation and taxation.

I do not see them providing any particular benefit, and I do not know if they do anything undesirable.

Using just one of vodka or vinegar may allow you to select a source that drives less cyano in your tank (which is how I ended up using vinegar and not vodka). Using NOPOX allows no such changes.

But in the end, cost is the primary driver for most folks.

Thank you kindly for your response. I suppose I could try out one of the two. I’m not opposed to saving money. I suppose I was more so concerned about getting the dosage correct depending on my nutrient levels. Also I will likely use the remainder of my NOPOX. If I’m dosing 6ml per day and not seeing significant results after months of using it, is it safe to increase the recommended dosage above the maximum dose provided by Redsea?

 

[i0nz]

You can mix vinegar in an ATO with kalkwasser. The high pH prevents bacterial growth.

If I choose to go this route how do I calculate how much is needed to add to my ato? Between both

 

[Miami Reef]

I do not see them providing any particular benefit, and I do not know if they do anything undesirable.

Is it possible that the methanol addition can be limiting on how high one can dose? Say, someone wants to dose more NOPOX than the bottle recommendations because their input of N is higher than average?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it possible that the methanol addition can be limiting on how high one can dose? Say, someone wants to dose more NOPOX than the bottle recommendations because their input of N is higher than average?

Not sure. I've not seen many folks dose methanol directly (just in denitrators), but I doubt that methanol toxicity the concern.

Bottoming nutrients, excessive bacteria, and low O2 and pH are drawbacks to high doses of all organics, and may be what Red Sea uses to set a limit. It also may not be a "correct" limit.

 

[Miami Reef]

If I choose to go this route how do I calculate how much is needed to add to my ato? Between both

Kalkwasser should be dosed per alkalinity consumption. Usually people adjust the saturation level and allow the ATO to dose all their evaporation.

You can take a daily dose of vinegar and multiply it by how many days it takes for your ATO to deplete, although I personally haven‘t done it that way.

 

[schooncw]

I’m curious as to how this would apply to NoPOX dosing? If I’m using the recommended dose recommended by Red Sea and not seeing significant results, can I increase my dose? I’m at 6ml per day. I had my dosing pump set to deliver 1ml 6 times in a 24 hour period but I’ve just adjusted it to dose during my photoperiod as you recommended.

Additionally, I’m aware of the fact that the method you posted above is more cost effective yet I find the single solution easier. However would there be any added benefit aside from cost to switching from NoPOX to vodka/vinegar?

I primarily use Fauna Marin Bacto Energy and they say don’t exceed 5ml daily. I dose 15ml with no adverse effect. I have better results than when I used nopox.

 

[Trimixdivin]

I am currently dosing 22ml of vodka in my 300 and nitrates are still off the chart and phosphates are at .80. Is there a conversion formula if I want to switch to DIY nopox?

I want to set up my doser

 

[Miami Reef]

I am currently dosing 22ml of vodka in my 300 and nitrates are still off the chart and phosphates are at .80. Is there a conversion formula if I want to switch to DIY nopox?

I want to set up my doser

If you really want nitrates to come down fast, I’d suggest 37.5mL per day for your tank. That should drop your NO3 much quicker.

There’s a DIY recipe of NOPOX online where you can follow Red Sea’s dose, but my higher dose (37.5mL) will work much faster.

 

[Trimixdivin]

will increase my dosage tomorrow and see what happens.

Thanks
Marty

 

[Trimixdivin]

finally after dosing 35ml of vodka my nitrates do max out the hanna tester at 75. Today down to 67.7 and phosphates dropped to .71 from .74

Should I keep doing the 35 ml or back it down a little?