NEW Vodka and Vinegar Dosing Charts

[MnFish1]

Done. Thank you for the suggestion. The first post was updated.

Special thanks to @EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal for helping me perfect the grammar in the guidelines beside the chart.

I am almost positive I've seen a paper on that, but I can't seem to find it now. Nevertheless, an overwhelming number of people noticed an increase of cyano with vodka, so I'll leave that as a disclaimer. I appreciate the concern. It's good to challenge our beliefs to ensure we are always up to date with the evidence.

I'm sure thats the case - however, the cause for the increased cyano is the question in my mind. Will try to look for that paper. But - the issue is - did those people bottom out xxx or yyy - whereas others did not. I'm still not sure that bottoming out nutrients causes cyano. Of course - I'm a rogue horse

 

[Reefering1]

I'm sure thats the case - however, the cause for the increased cyano is the question in my mind. Will try to look for that paper. But - the issue is - did those people bottom out xxx or yyy - whereas others did not. I'm still not sure that bottoming out nutrients causes cyano. Of course - I'm a rogue horse

A little cyano shows up in my tank after relentless overfeeding(like when I added a new cbb to large established desjardini), it goes away with more vodka in a couple days. Idk why but its repeatable

 

[TruckerAquarist]

Hello fellow reefers.
Would someone please help me with this question.
I have some

Brightwell Aquatics BioFuel CWM​

And I'm using this to carbon dose my system. I know it's intended to be used in a cold water but does anyone really know if it is safe enough or effective enough to use in a regular reef tank?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Hello fellow reefers.
Would someone please help me with this question.
I have some

Brightwell Aquatics BioFuel CWM​

And I'm using this to carbon dose my system. I know it's intended to be used in a cold water but does anyone really know if it is safe enough or effective enough to use in a regular reef tank?

I'm going to ask the mods to move this to its own thread...

 

[gbroadbridge]

Part of the probiotic method is dosing the AF NitroPhos minus at 20ml per day. I also believe one of the other "bacteria dosing" bottles include a carbon source (pro bio S and NP pro). They don't say not to vinegar dose, but it also doesn't provide guidance if you are.

Considering I am struggling to keep NO3 down (PO4 is coming down), would you suggest moving back to the 40 ml to see if that helps reduce the NO3 or give the "triple threat" time to work them down? Part of my adjustments were also related to some growth on the underside of my rocks "fluffy brown stuff" you can see in my other posts thinking that was a bacteria build up.

Off topic for this thread, but if you're dosing AF Pro Bio S and NP Pro, you should not be dosing AF NitraPhos Minus or Vinegar/Vodka.

Pro Bio S is a bacteria source and NP Pro is a very concentrated Carbon Source.

Those two alone will do all that you need (I use them in my 90 gal system and they work very well)
You can dilute the NP Pro (50ml + 1950ml RODI ) and dose it with a dosing pump.

When you finish the NP Pro you could switch to Vinegar if you wanted, or you may consider switching if you suspect NP Pro is fueling cyano.

 

[dwhanc00]

Off topic for this thread, but if you're dosing AF Pro Bio S and NP Pro, you should not be dosing AF NitraPhos Minus or Vinegar/Vodka.

Pro Bio S is a bacteria source and NP Pro is a very concentrated Carbon Source.

Those two alone will do all that you need (I use them in my 90 gal system and they work very well)
You can dilute the NP Pro (50ml + 1950ml RODI ) and dose it with a dosing pump.

When you finish the NP Pro you could switch to Vinegar if you wanted, or you may consider switching if you suspect NP Pro is fueling cyano.

Thank you for your response. Sorry, thought because this was a thread about carbon dosing, I could ask whether or not dosing vinegar with the above regiment would be too much. And if not, how much would be too much would have been my next question. You answered that question for me so I guess the moderators can delete if necessary. I also appreciate the dilution and automation advice - stop vinegar dosing and use your dilution formula. Thanks.

 

[schooncw]

What differences do you perceive?

Do you know what is in the formulations you use?

I have researched the FM and TM formulations as best that I can, watched the videos, etc. and have read numerous references that indicate that there may be "issues" with using sugar and/or vinegar that may be avoided using prepared formulas and it makes sense to me, that the prepared formulas should be more effective.
The doses of TM's Elimi NP and FM's Bacto Energy are small and the cost is negligible. As far as "perception" goes, I don't want to add 50 ml or so of vodka to my 120 every day, when 5 ml of BE or 0.7 ml of Elimi NP works just fine.

 

[JUSKIDN]

Does this look like dinoflagellates? I posted about this previously with only a few responses and no definite ID. I read above that vinegar dosing can cause it so I guessing it has to be it. I have a 60 gallon and ramped up to 20ml day of vinegar. This stuff returns the next day after a good cleaning. This last 5 days I’ve reduced to 10ml day with the plan to stop the vinegar dosing total. The goal was to carbon dose to cut down on water changes that I do 15% every 2 weeks. My parameters yesterday are pictured below. Any thoughts? I’m new to corals since earlier this year and just try to educate myself but so many mixed opinions in the forums. Please advise with and criticism or advise. I use tropic Marin pro reef salt mix.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Thanks for this Miami Reef. As you know I started Vodka dosing yesterday at a very low starting dose of 5ML for 550 gallon system. This 5ML for sure had an impact on my PH but dosing 10ML on day 2. My Nitrates are off the charts so not sure how long it will take but aslong as corals health improves and Kalk consumption goes up i'll take that as a positive sign.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thanks for this Miami Reef. As you know I started Vodka dosing yesterday at a very low starting dose of 5ML for 550 gallon system. This 5ML for sure had an impact on my PH but dosing 10ML on day 2. My Nitrates are off the charts so not sure how long it will take but aslong as corals health improves and Kalk consumption goes up i'll take that as a positive sign.

I don’t think you can detect the pH drop with only 5mL of vodka in a 550 gallon tank.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Ok, never mind

 

[Miami Reef]

Does this look like dinoflagellates? I posted about this previously with only a few responses and no definite ID. I read above that vinegar dosing can cause it so I guessing it has to be it. I have a 60 gallon and ramped up to 20ml day of vinegar. This stuff returns the next day after a good cleaning. This last 5 days I’ve reduced to 10ml day with the plan to stop the vinegar dosing total. The goal was to carbon dose to cut down on water changes that I do 15% every 2 weeks. My parameters yesterday are pictured below. Any thoughts? I’m new to corals since earlier this year and just try to educate myself but so many mixed opinions in the forums. Please advise with and criticism or advise. I use tropic Marin pro reef salt mix.

Are you sure those are Dinos and not diatoms?

 

[davidwillis]

This is great to have an updated chart for carbon dosing! Thanks Miami Reef!

It may be worth it to include instruction on mixing with Kalkwasser or other ways to off set the PH drop? I think you and Randy (or maybe others on here) are more knowledgable on this than me on this.

 

[Miami Reef]

This is great to have an updated chart for carbon dosing! Thanks Miami Reef!

It may be worth it to include instruction on mixing with Kalkwasser or other ways to off set the PH drop? I think you and Randy (or maybe others on here) are more knowledgable on this than me on this.

I have some information on this!


Here’s a quote by Randy

If we rewrite the vinegar equation in steps, we see that while the H+ release instantly drops pH, the subsequent conversion of the acetate to CO2 only produces half the amount of CO2:

CH3CO2H --> H+ + CH3CO2- (that lowers pH instantly by one H+ per acetic acid))

then we oxidize the acetate:

CH3CO2- + 2O2 --> 1CO2 + 1 HCO3- + 1 H2O

That oxidation has only one CO2 added, instead of 2. The HCO3- does not have much effect on pH since it mostly stays as bicarbonate.

Thus, half of the vinegar pH drop is shown instantly, and about half is shown later when CO2 is made, while vodka does it all later.

You can reduce the total pH drop by 50% solely by saturating calcium hydroxide with vinegar.

Add kalkwasser powder to the jug of vinegar until no more solid calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) dissolves. You should see undissolved solids that will settle on the bottom after letting the container settle for a few minutes.

If you add more vinegar, the remaining powder will redissolve, so don’t assume the precipitate went to waste. It’s just an insurance policy that all the acidity was neutralized.

Only dose the clear liquid on top.

This solution will raise calcium and alkalinity in a balanced fashion.

If you follow the week 2 dosage with saturated calcium hydroxide with vinegar, you will roughly add 0.3dKH per day.

 

[Reefering1]

@Miami Reef
Just out of curiosity, how long does the dosed organic carbon take to be consumed by the bacteria that assimilate the nutrients? Not so much on a fresh start, but after bacteria is established and results are measurable? Example: if I'm dosing 15ml/day of vodka and everything is stable with input, nitrate steady @ 10; and I dose a additional 15ml- how much time before that expected drop happens and is measurable? What's the lag time? (Not sure I'm asking this correctly)

 

[Miami Reef]

@Miami Reef
Just out of curiosity, how long does the dosed organic carbon take to be consumed by the bacteria that assimilate the nutrients? Not so much on a fresh start, but after bacteria is established and results are measurable? Example: if I'm dosing 15ml/day of vodka and everything is stable with input, nitrate steady @ 10; and I dose a additional 15ml- how much time before that expected drop happens and is measurable? What's the lag time? (Not sure I'm asking this correctly)

Good question. I believe a few days at most. If the carbon dose is adequate, nitrates will most likely fall IMO.

Especially if you double the maintenance dose. It shouldn’t take long I believe.

 

[Reefering1]

Good question. I believe a few days at most. If the carbon dose is adequate, nitrates will most likely fall IMO.

Especially if you double the maintenance dose. It shouldn’t take long I believe.

And, using vodka, what process drives the ph drop and how fast does that happen?

 

[Miami Reef]

And, using vodka, what process drives the ph drop and how fast does that happen?

Bacteria and organisms need to metabolise the ethanol before the drop happens:

The overall pH drop in a closed system should be the same for vinegar and vodka metabolism since the same amount of CO2 is formed from each singe molecule, but vinegar has it drop immediately (from dissociation of the acetic acid) and less later (from production of CO2), while vodka has it all spread out later (making many folks not even notice it).

CH3CH2OH (vodka) + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O

CH3CO2H (vinegar) + 2O2 --> 2CO2 + 2H2O

 

[Reefering1]

Bacteria and organisms need to metabolise the ethanol before the drop happens:

So does that mean the nutrient consumption begins at the same time as metabolism(immediately)? Sorry for the same question in different ways, trying to truly understand what's happening to optimize dosing times. Ideally I would want the ph effect during peak photosynthesis but wondering if/ don't want the bacteria competing with corals for nutrients when they need it most.. also, according to my understanding, algea respiration occurs during the darkness, ideally wouldn't this be the best time for the bacteria to assimilate released nutrients? Excuse me if I'm completely misunderstood, and please correct me

 

[Miami Reef]

So does that mean the nutrient consumption begins at the same time as metabolism(immediately)?

In my opinion, yes.

I don’t have an answer for those other questions. It seems like it would need complicated answer.

I don’t think you’d need to worry about bacteria outcompeting corals for nutrients. Just don’t bottom the nutrients out.