New tank fish IN cycle, ammonia won't go down

[RyanP]

I started a new FISH IN cycle in a 15G tank eight days ago with a 1oz bottle of Fritz turbo-start 900; shortly after, I introduced two small clownfish approximately 1 1/4". After much researching on this forum, I thought the Fritz 900 would quickly process ammonia within 24-48 hours. The tank has Caribsea live sand and Carib sea life rock (not live rock). The water is clear with good flow.

PH - 8.2
Temp - 78
Salinity - 1.025

However, my ammonia levels slowly climbed from 0.0 to 1.2 ppm by day 3. (Yes, the API test kit is known to be unreliable.) So I also got my LFS to test, and they also showed above 1.0 ppm. My Seachem alert badge also confirms ammonia present, turning a very light shade of green in the alert range 0.2 free ammonia). My clowns "seem" fine, active, and eating aggressively (very light feeding once daily).

On day four, with ammonia still showing above 1.0 ppm, I was concerned for the health of my fish. I spoke to LFS, and they recommended a 50% water change, skip feeding 24 hours, and re-adding a bottle of Turbo-start 900 in case of a rare dead bottle. I did this and borrowed different test kits to confirm readings. After the 50% water change, ammonia still read 0.7- 0.8 ppm on three different brands of testers. I added a new bottle of Fritz 900 with a different batch date from a different store's fridge after the water change (maybe unnecessary, but I did it anyway to be safe).

I am now on day 8.

Fish seem okay; don't seem to be breathing abnormally and will still eat aggressively (I am feeding VERY little and even skipped 2 days this week so as not to introduce even more ammonia); however, ammonia is creeping back up every day by about 0.10 (and not going down).

Currently, day 8:

Ammonia - 1.02 (Hanah), 1.2 (Red Sea), 1.0 (API)... and Seachem Alert badge (Light green alert @ 0.2)
Nitrite 0.5 (Red Sea), 0.5 (API)

Why are the 2x doses of turbo start over 8 days not decreasing Ammonia? I understand these ammonia test kits aren't accurate below 0.25, but they shouldn't all be reading above 1.0, including the alert badge turning light green.

Thoughts or recommendations? I wouldn't be so stressed if this weren't a fish-IN cycle. I don't want to harm these fish, but ammonia is not coming down with bottle bac - only increasing daily.

 

[Formulator]

It may just take a bit more time. The presence of nitrites is a good sign. I wouldn’t worry too much about your fish unless they start showing signs of poisoning. This thread might interest you:

Thread 'How toxic is ammonia, really?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-toxic-is-ammonia-really.1030601/

 

[Uncle99]

If ammonia was actually building beyond safe, the clowns would clearly show signs like fast breathing or popping at the surface.

You have rock, sand and two Fritz some flow.

Since in 8 days the clowns are fine. Your cycled.

Many Ammonia tests are not fine enough read low low amounts.

 

[RyanP]

If ammonia was actually building beyond safe, the clowns would clearly show signs like fast breathing or popping at the surface.

You have rock, sand and two Fritz some flow.

Since in 8 days the clowns are fine. Your cycled.

Many Ammonia tests are not fine enough read low low amounts.

Thanks - It just seems implausible to me that 4 different test brands are all showing nearly identical results around 1.0ppm. Something in the water has to be causing those readings. Maybe something else in the tank is causing a misread? Could a large beneficial bacteria die-off cause the ammonia to keep rising? (since I introduced way more than likely needed).

 

[Uncle99]

Thanks - It just seems implausible to me that 4 different test brands are all showing nearly identical results around 1.0ppm. Something in the water has to be causing those readings. Maybe something else in the tank is causing a misread? Could a large beneficial bacteria die-off cause the ammonia to keep rising? (since I introduced way more than likely needed).

It could, but again, your fish are in and happy.
A Water change always good if you’re concerned.
But I think you did that already.

Are you adding or dosing anything to the water?

 

[RyanP]

It could, but again, your fish are in and happy.
A Water change always good if you’re concerned.
But I think you did that already.

Are you adding or dosing anything to the water?

No, I have not added anything other than Fritz 900 and very light feeding. I just did a 5G water change so that "should" drop it to 0.6 or so, will check ammonia levels again in the morning.

 

[Garf]

No, I have not added anything other than Fritz 900 and very light feeding. I just did a 5G water change so that "should" drop it to 0.6 or so, will check ammonia levels again in the morning.

The alert badges seem to go up and down ok, in line with expected free ammonia at any given pH.

 

[Uncle99]

No, I have not added anything other than Fritz 900 and very light feeding. I just did a 5G water change so that "should" drop it to 0.6 or so, will check ammonia levels again in the morning.

That .6ppm ammonia is still high.
I would have expected some visual problems with those clowns.
We want to keep below .1ppm and investigate anything north of .2ppm.

I just don’t buy the test results. Not this far into the cycle after seeding.

 

[RyanP]

That .6ppm ammonia is still high.
I would have expected some visual problems with those clowns.
We want to keep below .1ppm and investigate anything north of .2ppm.

I just don’t buy the test results. Not this far into the cycle after seeding.

This is what it shows today after 35-40% water change last night. Hannah test was at 8am today and Red Sea was at 4pm today. Looks to be climbing above 1 again already.

 

[Uncle99]

This is what it shows today after 35-40% water change last night. Hannah test was at 8am today and Red Sea was at 4pm today. Looks to be climbing above 1 again already.

I would have thought .6ppm would be toxic to fish. The Red Sea 1.2ppm should kill.

So I don’t understand at all.

 

[MDAquatics]

Not a fan of the color match tests but that hanna should be spot on if you're doing all the steps. Fish still doing ok?

 

[RyanP]

Not a fan of the color match tests but that hanna should be spot on if you're doing all the steps. Fish still doing ok?

Yes - fish look good. Active and eating this morning. Hannah still showing 0.59 today after 2 big water changes over the past week. Steps followed exactly, bottle clear and wiped with microfiber as well. Red Sea and API ammonia results match pretty closely.

I would think the fish would be in bad shape after a week of 0.5 to 1.2 ammonia (.05+ toxic levels), but they aren’t. Nitrite now above 1.0.

 

[jimeah]

Another safety idea for the fish could be to add prime to bind the ammonia and stop it being toxic to fish, but it only lasts two days then you need to repeat. It sends the skimmer wild though!

 

[brandon429]

Ryan

take the recent ammonia reading from hanna above and run the estimates to turn it into nh3 which is reef specific

post that number vs the nh4 numbers so far, for contrast. pre conversion, the numbers look scary, a crash that never comes seems imminent

but after conversion, to what reefs use in ammonia management, see how the levels actually match the behavior of the tank this whole time?

after conversion then apply the .5% error possibility for the meter...per instructions that meter can be .5 off easily...see how everything is safe, that matches the fish behavior and what we see in pics, and no more ammonia testing is needed on this cycled tank?

the worry is misplaced: it's not ammonia but disease preps that are lacking, skipped totally in fact.

everyone skip cycles with Fritz, you did too. it's that disease import that'll get ya, not the cycle.

 

[RyanP]

Ryan

take the recent ammonia reading from hanna above and run the estimates to turn it into nh3 which is reef specific

post that number vs the nh4 numbers so far, for contrast. pre conversion, the numbers look scary, a crash that never comes seems imminent

but after conversion, to what reefs use in ammonia management, see how the levels actually match the behavior of the tank this whole time?

after conversion then apply the .5% error possibility for the meter...per instructions that meter can be .5 off easily...see how everything is safe, that matches the fish behavior and what we see in pics, and no more ammonia testing is needed on this cycled tank?

0.042 nh3
(0.040 - 0.045 with 5% error)

Fish seem normal to me but I thought this level was toxic..

 

[brandon429]

those are known safe levels in reefing. if you had a seneye, this thread wouldn't exist.

**don't go buy one** you are past the ammonia testing phase. all your ammonia tests are done with, for this tank. hope that helps, don't fret over the cycle any longer

Fritz engineers worked out all the probs ahead of time. nitrite no longer factors in reef tank cycling, it used to be stated as important to reef cycles 20 years ago--but not any longer. we can ignore nitrite testing in reef display cycling altogether.

**old cycling science taught us ammonia should be zero on all kits, that's not true, it always runs at some low free level in a stocked tank. yours is running exactly as it should, no issues here at all.

 

[Formulator]

I would have thought .6ppm would be toxic to fish. The Red Sea 1.2ppm should kill.

So I don’t understand at all.

1.2 ppm will not kill, nor would I expect to see symptoms at 0.6 ppm. Based on a literature review from Randy, it takes more than 10 ppm ammonia to kill, with many fish able to survive up to 4 days in a tank with upwards of 40 ppm ammonia.

Thread: How Toxic is Ammonia, Really?

Additionally, those tests measure total ammonia nitrate and do not consider the difference between ammonia (NH3) and the less toxic ionized ammonium (NH4+). At pH 8.2, 1.2 ppm total ammonia nitrogen is equal to about 0.1 ppm unionized ammonia (toxic form).

 

[Uncle99]

1.2 ppm will not kill, nor would I expect to see symptoms at 0.6 ppm. Based on a literature review from Randy, it takes more than 10 ppm ammonia to kill, with many fish able to survive up to 4 days in a tank with upwards of 40 ppm ammonia.

Thread: How Toxic is Ammonia, Really?

Additionally, those tests measure total ammonia nitrate and do not consider the difference between ammonia (NH3) and the less toxic ionized ammonium (NH4+). At pH 8.2, 1.2 ppm total ammonia nitrogen is equal to about 0.1 ppm unionized ammonia (toxic form).

Anything above .5ppm is harming fish.

I would take immediate action at anything beyond this level. I get concerned beyond .1ppm

It’s should be undetectable.

I’ll stick to the safe amount regardless of any documentation telling me otherwise.

Slow suffocation is a hard way to go.

 

[brandon429]

one thing is for sure, some stark predictions have been made here.

In ten days, we'll know which were applicable here. if that tank is dead crashed, his cycle was stalled.












and if indeed in ten days that tank looks just like it does now, and did on day 2, then I'm going to add this thread to page fifty of my false stall collections thread, where every single entrant for 4 years running was exactly like this tank



welcome to the nightmare of test-based cycling


what I sent ya in pm is the opposite of test-based cycle torture

can't wait to see in ten days if this tank lives perfectly, as fritz is known to do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would have thought .6ppm would be toxic to fish. The Red Sea 1.2ppm should kill.

So I don’t understand at all.

Lethal levels of ammonia are higher than 1.2 ppm.

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

ALL of the data supports the idea that few of these fish (much less than half) would die in 10-20 ppm total ammonia in 2 days. It takes 4 days in more than twice as much ammonia to kill even half of them.