Need help deciding on whether or not a fish is right for your tank? Post here and we'll help!

[eatbreakfast]

So you think it would work (

It will work in the 150. If it is already larger than the yellow

Ebf I'm sorry I don't agree. Although you're right it is a myth I think it's still the best starting point for someone new to marine fish tanks. I recommend one inch of fish per 10 gallons of tank. That's a safe level for most new to the hobby as they learn the skills to keep fish and works with most filter systems. Not everyone has a sump half the size of the display, a skimmer recommended for twice the water volume in the display, wave makers, etc. So it's best to start with a small load and only add more as you become more adept. It's common for newcomers to try and relate the amount of fish in a saltwater tank to the amount they see in freshwater tanks.

I feel that using "x in of fish per gallon" fails to take into account so many factors that it is pretty much a worthless standard of stocking. Using a method that includes testing water quality as well as observing fish behavior is far more beneficial to them and developing their needed skill sets than plugging in inches and gallons. Besides, if that was so effective than threads like this wouldn't be necessary, but receiving feedback from experienced aquarists can help new aquarists recieve knowledge without going through some of the hardships. And no matter what ratio one decides to use, whether an inch of fish to 3, 5, or 10g you can still run into the problem of a dozen trimma gobies or one harlequin tusk, both total 10" of fish and appropriate for entirely different tanks.

I've never had more than one tang at a time but I would like to add another to my 210. I have a four inch sailfin and would like to find a tang that won't be an issue with it. Thinking along the lines of a clown tang. Any experience of mixing tangs with a sailfin or suggestions to add a little color.

The issue with the clown is that he will quickly become much more aggressive than the sailfin. Usually a tang of a different body shape will work, but clowns, sohals, ans achilles go above and beyond with aggression.

If you can find a social acclimation box big enough for a tang, they work wonders for limiting aggression towards new additions.

My tank is cycled. 75 gallon. I have a 30 gallon sump. Reef octopus 1000sss skimmer. I am more concerned with aggression than bio load. I have Rodi filter and lots of instant ocean. Water changes not a problem. Plus maybe this will help me speed up the 150 project. All I really have to do is drill the overflow and return. Everything else is ready.

Bioload will be the bigger issue over aggression, but if you think your tank can handle it and the new tank will be up soon then go for it, but if I were in your situation I would wait to get him until the new tank is up and running.

 

[Harold Green]

Ebf how many fish will your tank support if the power goes out while you are at work? The question isn't how many fish your system will handle while everything is running at max but how much you can keep alive during power outages. It's nice to have some cushion. Now if you have backup power that's better but what about a return pump failure or other issue that might take a few hours to work around? Many hobbyists today see reef tanks with large amounts of fish swimming among the corals but in real life the ocean is mostly a desert. Why, because salt water doesn't hold a lot of oxygen. Normal oxygen exchange at the surface of the tank probably at best will support 1" or less of fish per 10 gallons. It has little to do with the hobbyists ability to keep fish alive. It's really about what the water will support. And sure there's a lot of difference between five one inch fish and one five inch fish but it's still a good way for the beginner to accept the fact that you shouldn't fill a reef tank with the maximum amount of fish your system may be able to support. You may be many times more skilled than I am but I've been raising marine fish for over forty years and although I've never populated a tank by inches I've come to the conclusion that most beginners have no idea how few fish the average marine system will support. It's much simpler for them to have something to start by as they learn what they can be successful with rather than learn from an expensive failure.

 

[big deddy]

I actually took out the black clown. Probably won't put anything back in place of it. Also all my fish are small. The naso is the biggest fish in my pond. So now I set at 7 fish with 3 being only around 1".

 

[eatbreakfast]

Ebf how many fish will your tank support if the power goes out while you are at work? The question isn't how many fish your system will handle while everything is running at max but how much you can keep alive during power outages. It's nice to have some cushion. Now if you have backup power that's better but what about a return pump failure or other issue that might take a few hours to work around? Many hobbyists today see reef tanks with large amounts of fish swimming among the corals but in real life the ocean is mostly a desert. Why, because salt water doesn't hold a lot of oxygen. Normal oxygen exchange at the surface of the tank probably at best will support 1" or less of fish per 10 gallons. It has little to do with the hobbyists ability to keep fish alive. It's really about what the water will support. And sure there's a lot of difference between five one inch fish and one five inch fish but it's still a good way for the beginner to accept the fact that you shouldn't fill a reef tank with the maximum amount of fish your system may be able to support. You may be many times more skilled than I am but I've been raising marine fish for over forty years and although I've never populated a tank by inches I've come to the conclusion that most beginners have no idea how few fish the average marine system will support. It's much simpler for them to have something to start by as they learn what they can be successful with rather than learn from an expensive failure.

I have had power failures of a few hours without power back ups and have been just fine. I have a portable generator now, but if power is out for less than 6hrs I feel comfortable not hooking it up. Eventually, if a power outage is long enough, and you have no back up, no matter how lightly you stock your tank there will be losses, so why have a sterile tank in the mean time? If you enjoy coral more than fish, fine, but there are plenty of others that prefer the fish. Besides, there are plenty of other "extra" purchases that are just as necessary as power back ups to save livestock in other situations as well. A quarantine tank is highly recommended and will save a lot of livestock losses from disease, but if somebody doesn't have one that doesn't mean I still won't try to give good advice for that particular situation. If you think that an inch of fish per gallon is the best standard and wish to give advice accordingly go right ahead, I just strongly disagree and will give my advice accordingly.

 

[Harold Green]

I never said 1" per gallon. What I did say was that many if not most new hobbyists have no idea how few fish a marine tank will actually support and telling them to add fish until the water shows a problem is a disservice to them. Can you learn to ride a bike by someone telling you how to do it? Not from my experience. It's the same with keeping marine fish in the best of health and learning not to crowd them is the first step. We're not talking about your skills and knowledge, we're talking about those new to the marine hobby who need to start at the basics.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I never said 1" per gallon. What I did say was that many if not most new hobbyists have no idea how few fish a marine tank will actually support and telling them to add fish until the water shows a problem is a disservice to them. Can you learn to ride a bike by someone telling you how to do it? Not from my experience. It's the same with keeping marine fish in the best of health and learning not to crowd them is the first step. We're not talking about your skills and knowledge, we're talking about those new to the marine hobby who need to start at the basics.

Agreed that we are talking about their skills and not mine, but telling them to add and then test is actually solid advice. Any icrease or change in stocking levels is going to have an affect on water chemistry. If their chemistry is already fine and then they add a fish and are able to manage those changes then they should not be told that they are not able to add any fish because somebody that has not ever seen the tank arbitrarily decide that they are overstocked.

The analogy of riding a bike to reefkeeping is also grossly misapplied, as you state that you cannot teach someone how to keep livestock in the best of health, but is just by experience, yet imply that followinng your advice will do just that, so either they can learn from others experience or they have to experience everything themselves.

Also, there are many skills that can be learned from others experiences, cookbooks and diy projects are excellent examples. Is it possible for somebody to replicate a dish following instructions from a cookbook? Of course it is. If someone had questions on following a particular recipe would they benefit by asking someone that has successfully made the recipe? Again, yes. Is personal experience the best way to get a feel for keeping livestock? Yes it is.

You can share your experience with those that inquire along with your belief that 1" per 10 gallons is right for a newcomer and I will share my experience and belief that if they followed that stocking guideline the tank would look incomplete.

 

[Harold Green]

I never said testing wasn't a good idea it's almost a requirement. However from your posts I got a message that you should stock heavily and then test for problems and I don't agree with that for newcomers. Learning to watch your livestock and being able to tell if it's happy or not is more important than how much you can cram into a tank. Everyone needs a starting point and I don't believe you provided one that's helpful to beginners.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I never said testing wasn't a good idea it's almost a requirement. However from your posts I got a message that you should stock heavily and then test for problems and I don't agree with that for newcomers. Learning to watch your livestock and being able to tell if it's happy or not is more important than how much you can cram into a tank. Everyone needs a starting point and I don't believe you provided one that's helpful to beginners.

I never said stock heavy and test for problems. The testing should be continual and should be geared toward keeping parameters in check. If someone asks if they can add another fish and it will coexist with their current stock and their parameters are fine I will not tell them they cannot when chemistry, common knowledge, and experience says that they can add, but fish police Harold Green says no because he has decided that newcomers need arbitrary stocking limits that have no basis in science should be their starting point.

People do need a starting point, but their asking is a starting point. My advice is a guideline, not a rule. But it is solidly based on personal experience and if it is not personal experience I will readily admit as such. Having an interesting tank rather than a boring empty one has a great affect on keeping new ones interested and furthering their development in the hobby.

 

[Harold Green]

You started out giving good advice but I have to say I didn't expect you to devolve into name calling simply because another hobbyist had a differing opinion. From here on this thread is all yours since you seem to be unable to tolerate other views. Have a good day.

 

[eatbreakfast]

You started out giving good advice but I have to say I didn't expect you to devolve into name calling simply because another hobbyist had a differing opinion. From here on this thread is all yours since you seem to be unable to tolerate other views. Have a good day.

Others have given differing advice than me on this and many other threads without issue, especially if there is a basis due to their experience or with regards to scientific understanding.

What would you say is an appropriate description of someone that unnecessarily restricts the stocking limit of others?

 

[jasonandsarah]

Bio-load and aggression aside I still believe a 75g is to small for a Naso. Sometimes it can be even harder to keep a smaller/younger tang in a smaller tank, they enjoy Olympic swimming and flying around 6'+ tanks. Don't get me wrong I do think there's some tangs that would be fine in a 75g. Depending on witch 75g it is, just a Naso isn't one of them.
Now if you get into Bio-load, changing water to make up for an overstocked tank isn't a great idea. Also a RO 1000sss is only rated for a 125g (probably more like 75g-100g) regularly stocked tank isn't it? So that skimmer is "normally" sized for your tank and can't handle 2 tangs and 4-5 other fish imo.
This is coming from someone with a 75g tank, that would also love to have a Naso tang. I'd never add one to my tank though, not even one the size of a half dollar. [emoji4] I also have a over rated skimmer, Ats and do 15% water changes weekly.

 

[Harold Green]

I would say it's helping beginners build a solid foundation to start in the hobby with instead of needing someone to go over every detail of their tank and then decide what and how much they can place in it. It's not meant to be a limitation it's meant to be a starting place that's safe to expand from. Some beginners can skip this with enough help and research but many can't and end up dropping out of the hobby simply because they fail the first attempt. I didn't disagree with any advice you had given until you, with all your superior knowledge, made light of a "suggestion" that millions of hobbyists worldwide have used for four decades with some measure of success. Reef keeping has been around a while now and it's more than the most expensive controller and sensors can buy. It's enjoyment at what you can accomplish otherwise it would make more sense to hire a company to come in and maintain your tank. Most of the fun of this website is exchange of ideas, considering what others have to say and have experienced. Are any of us always right? I doubt it. I was fortunate enough to be around when this hobby was at it's beginning. There were no sensors or even test kits. You had to learn by trial and error. Today we're fortunate enough to have equipment that goes far beyond what we had. And it definitely makes tanks easier to maintain and much easier to find issues than ever before. But none of it matters if you don't have a basic understanding of the hobby. With respect I think you've forgotten that.

 

[Harold Green]

Bio-load and aggression aside I still believe a 75g is to small for a Naso. Sometimes it can be even harder to keep a smaller/younger tang in a smaller tank, they enjoy Olympic swimming and flying around 6'+ tanks. Don't get me wrong I do think there's some tangs that would be fine in a 75g. Depending on witch 75g it is, just a Naso isn't one of them.
Now if you get into Bio-load, changing water to make up for an overstocked tank isn't a great idea. Also a RO 1000sss is only rated for a 125g (probably more like 75g-100g) regularly stocked tank isn't it? So that skimmer is "normally" sized for your tank and can't handle 2 tangs and 4-5 other fish imo.
This is coming from someone with a 75g tank, that would also love to have a Naso tang. I'd never add one to my tank though, not even one the size of a half dollar. [emoji4] I also have a over rated skimmer, Ats and do 15% water changes weekly.

Good advice. I think a lot of people don't consider what it takes to make a particular fish happy. One that likes it's environment will eat better, be more colorful and live longer. Just my personal view but I like the look of small fish in a large tank better than a large fish in a small tank.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I would say it's helping beginners build a solid foundation to start in the hobby with instead of needing someone to go over every detail of their tank and then decide what and how much they can place in it. It's not meant to be a limitation it's meant to be a starting place that's safe to expand from. Some beginners can skip this with enough help and research but many can't and end up dropping out of the hobby simply because they fail the first attempt. I didn't disagree with any advice you had given until you, with all your superior knowledge, made light of a "suggestion" that millions of hobbyists worldwide have used for four decades with some measure of success. Reef keeping has been around a while now and it's more than the most expensive controller and sensors can buy. It's enjoyment at what you can accomplish otherwise it would make more sense to hire a company to come in and maintain your tank. Most of the fun of this website is exchange of ideas, considering what others have to say and have experienced. Are any of us always right? I doubt it. I was fortunate enough to be around when this hobby was at it's beginning. There were no sensors or even test kits. You had to learn by trial and error. Today we're fortunate enough to have equipment that goes far beyond what we had. And it definitely makes tanks easier to maintain and much easier to find issues than ever before. But none of it matters if you don't have a basic understanding of the hobby. With respect I think you've forgotten that.

I am not one that advocates relying on automation, controllers, r sensors. Using a basis of 1" of fish per 10g is an idea that was commonly used decades ago but has been thoroughly debunked by experts and most hobbyists that have done even just a little bit of research on the matter. To use a faulty and unreliable starting point is like building a house on an unstable foundation and does not help the newcomer learn and appreciate the intricacies involved in successful reefkeeping.

Needless limitations is also dangerous because it keeps the new reefkeeper disengaged in a long and tedious process, that gets them bored, and when people get bored they lose interest and when they lose interest begin to slack off on some of the more mundane aspects of the hobby. Keeping newcomers enthusiastic and involved gets them started on a more solid foundation in reefkeeping, by guiding and explaining why something can and cannot be done and what they need to adjust and why they need to adjust it to work.

Just because there were greater limitations in the past doesn't mean that those entering the hobby today must be bound by those limitations today.

 

[jasonandsarah]

It will work in the 150. If it is already larger than the yellow

Idk but I think he agreed in this post anyways? To small for the 75g but a good addition to the 150g once set up. Correct?
I don't think adding a fish with plans to upgrade is a good idea either. Life happens and plans change. Put the 150g up Asap and get the Naso after

 

[glb]

How about a 12g nano?

 

[Harold Green]

Ebf, I decided to look into what you had to say with a view toward giving you the benefit of the doubt that I was completely wrong. After visiting multiple web sites on marine fish stocking there seems to be two main schools of thought. First is to figure out the actual carrying capacity of the tank and the total bioload that you want to put in. Too complicated for most hobbyists to use. Next up they all suggested using different rules of how many fish per gallon, per cubic foot of water, per total surface area. This is the consensus I found. Limit what you start with as you learn and can actually see what your system is capable of handling. I didn't find anything anywhere supporting your view. If you have evidence supporting that let me know and I'll research it and admit I'm wrong in suggesting how beginners can safely start a tank if I find it convincing. But for now I feel safe recommending what every professional marine grower is suggesting.

 

[Shep]

Let's get back on topic, there are other threads about stocking rules and suggestions.

 

[Paul B]

I have no recommendations as to how many fish a gallon to add because I couldn't say. My tank is a little overcrowded and many of my fish are spawning so I overfeed. But my tank can handle it as it is very mature and I am friends with all the bacteria in there. Many tanks are not like that and all fish are different. A large frogfish can be put in a relatively small tank as can seahorses but a tang, moray eel or filefish is completely different. When I was young (and spent time with Abe Lincoln) my Mother would bake a lot. I would ask her how she made certain things and she said, she really couldn't tell me as I had to watch her because it was not just amounts, but techniques. Unfortunately, fish keeping is the same thing and I also couldn't explain how many fish per gallon could be added to a tank as there are just to many variables.

 

[Harold Green]

Morning Paul. Well we all had to start somewhere. My first marine tank was forty years ago. A 55g with the latest technology, an undergravel filter beneath a bed of crushed coral. Run in with a pair of blue damsels. It ended up housing angels, butterflies, tangs, although few at the same time. All lived and grew for some time and I was fortunate to not have ever had a tank crash. Can't put it down to knowledge because there just wasn't much information out there on raising marine fish but decades of raising fresh water fish can at least give you some insights. Unfortunately back then my tanks always devolved into algae meadows which the fish seem to have enjoyed. (in tank refusium). The equipment and knowledge available today puts the chances of success out there for all who take the time to research. I learned one thing and that's to stay away from people who claim they know the best or only method of having a marine tank. A method that works amazing well for one person may not work at all for the next and vice versa. To me the creation of the tank and learning it's maintenance routine is part of the enjoyment of the tank. Success is just icing on the cake.