moonshiners liquid mud

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, let's stick to the topic and specific ideas, and not personally attack one another. I don't want the thread to get closed.

 

[LA Reef Addict]

"and are naturally based such as Beryllium, GOLD, Gallium and many other minor trace"

 

[dmsc2fs]

I have wondered if some of the trace's that are not needed, or science has shown no benefit, could lead to another possibility that we cant test for. I wonder if the coloration of some corals can be effected by having one trace or another available. We know Iron can impact colors of coral. Why can't gold or gallium? Now I'm not saying "go add gallium and your Myagi Tort will have a sweet sweet grill". I'm simply saying maybe some of the color variations we have across every tank is due to differences in things we cant test for. Traces of elements for example.

Concerning Liqui-Mud. I have no reason to think it helps, or hurts the tank.

 

[maxwell]

OK, let's stick to the topic and specific ideas, and not personally attack one another. I don't want the thread to get closed.

Randy i suggest you close the thread as you answered my question to which i replied and thanked you. Bill

 

[BeanAnimal]

FWIW - Randy does not have a tank. I don't think that (at all) precludes him from participation, nor does it invalidate his opinion or answers.

I don't see a reason to close the thread, as the discussion itself is valid and interesting.

We know Iron can impact colors of coral. Why can't gold or gallium? Now I'm not saying "go add gallium and your Myagi Tort will have a sweet sweet grill". I'm simply saying maybe some of the color variations we have across every tank is due to differences in things we cant test for. Traces of elements for example.

Not being at all facetious, but by the logic one could put anything in a bottle and sell it is "beneficial" and apply the logic that just because we can't "test for it" it can't hurt to try.

In one sense, that is valid from a discovery context. However, selling the product with specific claims of benefit is another.

To date, most of the elements in the sixth periodic row have shown no have no known biological roles, with some being harmful. I think that is what Randy was trying to point out. Just because it "exists" as a natural element and/or could be found in NSW does not mean it plays any known role in coral health or coloration.

While your assumption that one or more of these could affect coloration may be true, I am not aware of any research to date that shows that.

Concerning Liqui-Mud. I have no reason to think it helps, or hurts the tank.

That may very well be true, but it is marketed as beneficial, with a page full of benefits and claims.

 

[IKD]

Randy , Thanks for the reply and i am pleased to get a straight forward answer which i will follow as the liquid is not the same as miracle mud , i dont use any moonshiners product so will continue as i am as i have a couple of weeks to get everything on track . Bill

I use moonshiner and tried the mud but stopped after the one bottle as it didn’t make sense as you’ve read from above comments. I saw no benefit (or detriment) while using it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have wondered if some of the trace's that are not needed, or science has shown no benefit, could lead to another possibility that we cant test for. I wonder if the coloration of some corals can be effected by having one trace or another available. We know Iron can impact colors of coral. Why can't gold or gallium? Now I'm not saying "go add gallium and your Myagi Tort will have a sweet sweet grill". I'm simply saying maybe some of the color variations we have across every tank is due to differences in things we cant test for. Traces of elements for example.

Concerning Liqui-Mud. I have no reason to think it helps, or hurts the tank.

So anything is possible? IMO, that’s a poor reason to add something that lacks any evidence. Might as well empty your cleaning cabinet into the tank in the random hope it boosts colors.

Iron is used by nearly every organism, so that’s why it has effects. Gold is unreactive, and won’t be be used by any organism.


The idea that anything is possible is not really a tenant of chemistry.

Of course, most elements (not gold) can reach toxic levels if too much is added.

 

[rtparty]

All the back and forth but the fact remains that RM liqui-mud contains loads of elements that have no relevance to the hobby.

It took me years and thousands of dollars to finally realize what was going on. When I finally ditched it all and went back to my normal routine (that has worked for close to 20 years for me) my tank didn’t skip a beat and even got better.

Personally, after 20 years, I’m tired of all these companies slapping labels on bottles and claiming it does X, Y, and Z. Then they show off a tank or two and that’s the “proof” it was their bottles that worked.

Nah. I’m over that. Give me the exact science of what you’re dosing and why it works. I’ll decide if I need it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy i suggest you close the thread as you answered my question to which i replied and thanked you. Bill

FWIW, Reef2Reef does not close threads unless the responding members continually violate the terms of service.

 

[BeanAnimal]

..

 

[smiley28]

This is actually a decent conversation since miracle mud is used to describe a product that has been sold for atleast as long as I’ve been in the hobby and probably much longer(15yr for context). Other companies attempting to sell products similarly named is kind of funny. Also for what it’s worth I went to visit a hobbyist that is very well known and maintains that he is a hobbyist to this day, not in the business aspect of the hobby per a recent podcast he was on. He had mud in a smaller second tank and if I recall correctly he wasn’t sure it did much but it sounded like he was curious about its bacterial benefits and if it does actually have them. The tank setup was a 100g(I think that’s the correct size.. I was a bit overwhelmed by his main display) system separate from his 500g. I didn’t get a ton of feedback on the product as he wasn’t entirely sure but I thought it was kind of funny as the hobbyist is pretty highly regarded I think. Anyway I also recently went to another random hobbyist home recently to pick up a yellow tang and his display was pretty impressive. He also was using the the typical miracle mud product I think we all know and so I left his house wonder if I should be trying out miracle mud. I sometimes text BigE asking questions about things and I usually fall into a keep it simple style but the things I’m seeing are very interesting. Also! Didn’t Adam from bc also use it recently when setting up a tank? In a video? And Mike palette atleast used to use it? I’d hate to see a product that might be helpful be shunned even if I don’t personally use it.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I drew some mud today. It’s a miracle I didn’t launch myself to the next zip code.

 

[Jimbo327]

I find that most commercial additives are designed to extract money from the general reefer's wallet. Most are just buying water with small amount of chemical powders mixed in. I want to thank Randy for putting out so much information on how to DIY these same solutions at fraction of the cost. It is refreshing in this hobby to find such a valuable resource.

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

My opinion from the description:

It looks to me like they’ve gone off the rails. Their original concept was reasonable but tedious: test many ions and replace individually. Not every element they suggested was sensible, but folks got good results from the others.

Now they seems to be going wild on the addition idea veering into elements with little or no known biological role;

Liquid-Mud provides the beneficial supplementation of natural occurring essential minerals and trace elements also known as Rare Earth Elements (REE),

With the Liqui-Mud, these minerals and trace elements that are very difficult to dose, and are naturally based such as Beryllium, Gold, Gallium and many other minor trace elements, are simply supplemented on a daily basis with this Product.


I cannot see any reason to dose these.

The product may have benefits, but not for the reasons given.

By all means you are under no obligation to answer. But, I am a bit perplexed. This is a forum... a place for conversation. You posted a comment and I simply had questions in context to the topic of this thread. They were honest questions.

"I use Burt's Bees balm on my lips instead of Chapstick"
"Great, but why? Does it work better or differently have you read someplace that it does or how it differs?"
"I never said it was better. Don't interrogate me man..."

 

[maxwell]

This is actually a decent conversation since miracle mud is used to describe a product that has been sold for atleast as long as I’ve been in the hobby and probably much longer(15yr for context). Other companies attempting to sell products similarly named is kind of funny. Also for what it’s worth I went to visit a hobbyist that is very well known and maintains that he is a hobbyist to this day, not in the business aspect of the hobby per a recent podcast he was on. He had mud in a smaller second tank and if I recall correctly he wasn’t sure it did much but it sounded like he was curious about its bacterial benefits and if it does actually have them. The tank setup was a 100g(I think that’s the correct size.. I was a bit overwhelmed by his main display) system separate from his 500g. I didn’t get a ton of feedback on the product as he wasn’t entirely sure but I thought it was kind of funny as the hobbyist is pretty highly regarded I think. Anyway I also recently went to another random hobbyist home recently to pick up a yellow tang and his display was pretty impressive. He also was using the the typical miracle mud product I think we all know and so I left his house wonder if I should be trying out miracle mud. I sometimes text BigE asking questions about things and I usually fall into a keep it simple style but the things I’m seeing are very interesting. Also! Didn’t Adam from bc also use it recently when setting up a tank? In a video? And Mike palette atleast used to use it? I’d hate to see a product that might be helpful be shunned even if I don’t personally use it.

Mud mmm vs science lol

 

[coral reeftank]

I like mud

 

[VintageReefer]

I have a tub of miracle mud. I have a new 83g build going on and always wondered about the product. Honestly I’m about 50/50 if I will actually use it or not. Never used it before. I was buying gear one day for the build and figured add to cart, decide later if I’ll use it :/

 

[maxwell]

Mud mmm vs science lol

I have asked a top chemist for many years and is also a keen aquarist and has a tank but he has never used mud or is aware of the liquid product.

i do have confidence in the product formulations of reef moonshiner.
The effect may not because of certain trace elements, but there might be other mechanisms of action.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Mud mmm vs science lol

There are countless tanks that don’t use “mud” that are just as nice. So again, the simple question is, what is the “mud” doing?. You said your mud was depleted and needed to be refreshed. Why? What is the indicator?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have asked a top chemist for many years and is also a keen aquarist and has a tank but he has never used mud or is aware of the liquid product.

The “mud” and liquid product have absolutely nothing in common other than the word “mud” in the name. There is nothing to compare.

i do have confidence in the product formulations of reef moonshiner.
The effect may not because of certain trace elements, but there might be other mechanisms of action.

But it is sold specifically as a trace element supplement, with a giant page full of listed benefits. What “mechanism of action” are you surmising is taking place that gives you so much confidence in the vendor and product?