moonshiners liquid mud

[BeanAnimal]

The question i asked was if people in the US use it and any benefits , the icp test was for my benefit as im wanting to get everything as it was before i get laid up for a while not able to do anything maint wise /water changes to give it the best chance as i have used mud previously irrespective of what it does .

I understand that. My question was other not doing anything "bad" what evidence is there that you exisitng mud did anything "good".

I also pointed out that Other than "mud" in the name, the two products have absolutely nothing in common in use or composition, so asking or comparing one to the other is no more relevant than asking if one has had luck using brick mortar ("mud") or if playing mortal realms helped (a "mud" based game).

People too quick to put a downer on things as snake oil and going on about gold with your little fishes end of for me.thanks

And we are back to "dang facts and science, if you haven't tried it you are not qualified to answer or have an informed opinion". That is absolutely ridiculous logic and the very underlying reason that "snake-oil" is as viable today as it was in the wild-west or Ming Dynasty....

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’ve got 4 or 5 year old miracle mud in my sump under a thick mat of cheato. If nothing else it’s a good environment for bacteria and microorganisms.

I’m also using the moonshiners method, but not interested in dosing mud to the tank.

My honest question would be what evidence is there that it is a good bacterial or micro fauna home compared to other substrates? It very well may be and I am just not aware of any research. I would love to see some if there is.

As Randy indicated (I am not in the know) some of these products may provide iron, but I am not sure for how long.

 

[bobnicaragua]

My honest question would be what evidence is there that it is a good bacterial or micro fauna home compared to other substrates? It very well may be and I am just not aware of any research. I would love to see some if there is.

As Randy indicated (I am not in the know) some of these products may provide iron, but I am not sure for how long.

I didn’t claim it was better than sand. Miracle mud claims it’s better.

It’s cheap, and may be more beneficial than sand in the sump. I figure worse case, it’s a decent substrate that has similar benefits to sand.

I’m an old school reefer who believes in establishing a healthy ecosystem. It fits that philosophy.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I didn’t claim it was better than sand. Miracle mud claims it’s better.

It’s cheap, and may be more beneficial than sand in the sump. I figure worse case, it’s a decent substrate that has similar benefits to sand.

My question was, what makes you think that it may be more or less beneficial or have similar benefits to sand?

I’m an old school reefer who believes in establishing a healthy ecosystem. It fits that philosophy.

How, other than the marketing? Are you aware of any studies or data other than the marketing (again honest question, as I am not).

 

[maxwell]

If you want mud to replace mud you have, then I think you must look to real muds, not rare earth and gold replacement products.

Your request is perfectly reasonable. Sadly, this product is not, and especially is not a replacement for traditional muds that at least plausibly can add elements you may need, such as iron.

Randy , Thanks for the reply and i am pleased to get a straight forward answer which i will follow as the liquid is not the same as miracle mud , i dont use any moonshiners product so will continue as i am as i have a couple of weeks to get everything on track . Bill

 

[maxwell]

I understand that. My question was other not doing anything "bad" what evidence is there that you exisitng mud did anything "good".

I also pointed out that Other than "mud" in the name, the two products have absolutely nothing in common in use or composition, so asking or comparing one to the other is no more relevant than asking if one has had luck using brick mortar ("mud") or if playing mortal realms helped (a "mud" based game).


And we are back to "dang facts and science, if you haven't tried it you are not qualified to answer or have an informed opinion". That is absolutely ridiculous logic and the very underlying reason that "snake-oil" is as viable today as it was in the wild-west or Ming Dynasty....

Did you ever read my post asking the questions ,or did you just go off on a tangent about snake oils , i will say it again this is what i posted which i consider a polite request

Im due to change my miracle mud in the sump and have found a stockist in the UK that has the moonshiners liquid mud its a small bottle and gives the amount per 100gal tank but i cannot find any reviews on the product if its benficial and were to dose it ie should it be in the sump or in the tank . Any help would be appreciated.thanks bill

 

[BeanAnimal]

Did you ever read my post asking the questions ,or did you just go off on a tangent about snake oils , i will say it again this is what i posted which i consider a polite request

Im due to change my miracle mud in the sump and have found a stockist in the UK that has the moonshiners liquid mud its a small bottle and gives the amount per 100gal tank but i cannot find any reviews on the product if its benficial and were to dose it ie should it be in the sump or in the tank . Any help would be appreciated.thanks bill

I would certainly find it odd if I was able to respond to you without reading your posts.... I don't have ESP.

The responses have been very straight forward and directly in context to your posts.

1 - The product is not "mud". It just has "mud" in the name.
2 - It does certainly appear to be "snake oil" given the lack of evidence that what it contains is beneficial to reef life.
3 - What is it that you feel the "mud" you have used in the past provides and/or how do you know it does anything?

I (we?) are not hung up on the "tangent" of "snake-oil" - you are hung up on the fact that people who have not used a product have an (informed) opinion about it, and have stated so 2-3 times. It is a conversation that you started. I am just participating by responding to you. I have asked a few questions in an attempt to further the conversation. You are welcome to answer or not.

 

[bobnicaragua]

My question was, what makes you think that it may be more or less beneficial or have similar benefits to sand?


How, other than the marketing? Are you aware of any studies or data other than the marketing (again honest question, as I am not).

I feel like I’m being cross examined.

 

[BeanAnimal]

By all means you are under no obligation to answer. But, I am a bit perplexed. This is a forum... a place for conversation. You posted a comment and I simply had questions in context to the topic of this thread. They were honest questions.

"I use Burt's Bees balm on my lips instead of Chapstick"
"Great, but why? Does it work better or differently have you read someplace that it does or how it differs?"
"I never said it was better. Don't interrogate me man..."

 

[Koty]

That is why Snake oils work:

 

[maxwell]

I would certainly find it odd if I was able to respond to you without reading your posts.... I don't have ESP.

The responses have been very straight forward and directly in context to your posts.

1 - The product is not "mud". It just has "mud" in the name.
2 - It does certainly appear to be "snake oil" given the lack of evidence that what it contains is beneficial to reef life.
3 - What is it that you feel the "mud" you have used in the past provides and/or how do you know it does anything?

I (we?) are not hung up on the "tangent" of "snake-oil" - you are hung up on the fact that people who have not used a product have an (informed) opinion about it, and have stated so 2-3 times. It is a conversation that you started. I am just participating by responding to you. I have asked a few questions in an attempt to further the conversation. You are welcome to answer or not.

With all your scientific knowledge and interegation of post it would be nice to see the proof of the pudding and show us a tank thread or at least pictures of your tank so we can all aspire to your superior knowledge and no how ,Then i may listen and respond .You are welcome to respond or not as others on this post

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not sure why you are upset, but the conversation has absolutely nothing to do with my tank or my knowledge. My simple comments and questions were in good faith and would be just as valid if I have failed for decades to maintain a living coral, or for that matter never had an aquarium.

 

[maxwell]

I am not sure why you are upset, but the conversation has absolutely nothing to do with my tank or my knowledge. My simple comments and questions were in good faith and would be just as valid if I have failed for decades to maintain a living coral, or for that matter never had an aquarium.

So thats a no then you have neither a tank thread or any pictures of a successful tank but you only prefer to call out new products without any prior knowledge or use and indeed challenge ligitimate reefers posting and looking for advice in a proper manner . It seems you are a failed reefer with a grudge against manufacturers and the world , i suggest you get involved in a hobby that you actually particate in and offer your expertise to that.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You asked:

Im due to change my miracle mud in the sump and have found a stockist in the UK that has the moonshiners liquid mud its a small bottle and gives the amount per 100gal tank but i cannot find any reviews on the product if its benficial and were to dose it ie should it be in the sump or in the tank . Any help would be appreciated.thanks bill

I (and several other people) pointed out that there is no way to compare to what you are currently using, as the product is not "mud". It just has "mud" in the name and in no way resembles what you are currently using.

I (and several other people) also pointed out that there does not appear to be any science showing that any of the elements listed in the product have been proven to be beneficial to reef aquariums.

I (we) attempted to answer your question with relevant information.

In addition to the two statements above, I simply asked what it is that you feel that the "mud" you have been using provides. I asked the same of another responder. I don't care that you use the products and don't discount your success (whatever it is attributed to). I simply asked what you feel the mud provides.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with my (or anyones) success or failures as a reef keeper. I am a bit baffled at your anger.

 

[maxwell]

You asked:


I (and several other people) pointed out that there is no way to compare to what you are currently using, as the product is not "mud". It just has "mud" in the name and in no way resembles what you are currently using.

I (and several other people) also pointed out that there does not appear to be any science showing that any of the elements listed in the product have been proven to be beneficial to reef aquariums.

I (we) attempted to answer your question with relevant information.

In addition to the two statements above, I simply asked what it is that you feel that the "mud" you have been using provides. I asked the same of another responder. I don't care that you use the products and don't discount your success (whatever it is attributed to). I simply asked what you feel the mud provides.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with my (or anyones) success or failures as a reef keeper. I am a bit baffled at your anger.

Still no reef tank thread or pictures of your tank says it all to the good folk on here as you have neither ,you did not ask at all you stated you did not have ESP etc . My question was reasonable and polite based on my circumstances to which a lot of people are aware on R2R . Your post do not reflect what your saying as many are aware and i stand by if you do not participate in the hobby WHY question others who are hobbyist and have been for many years and still do not make scientific reasons for using this and that as all tanks are individual and are subjective to that reefer . Many manufacturers have spent thousands of pounds on R&D developing products that may work in certain tanks and methods and others not but people who state these are snake oils is decrying all the LFS which run businesses for our benefit and support there families if we all had your attitude the hobby would not exist, i prefer to be open minded and treat everybody with RESPECT. Thats the end of me posting on this matter.thank you

 

[Big E]

Why don't you pull your current mud and see if anything changes in your system without replacing it.

The original Miracle Mud we get here in the US has been around for years. Very few people use it and it's never really been popular. I doubt it makes a difference in keeping a successful tank.

 

[maxwell]

Why don't you pull your current mud and see if anything changes in your system without replacing it.

The original Miracle Mud we get here in the US has been around for years. Very few people use it and it's never really been popular. I doubt it makes a difference in keeping a successful tank.

Hi ,Thanks for the post i was not trying to validate a product or not just that the system has run for 10yrs and i have brought everything in the tank up to capacity including calx media ,dosing products ,all pumps and equip cleaned , lighting sorted as i will be incapacitated shortly not being able to maintain things for a while.The last thought having just seen the liquid mud arrive here in the UK for ease do i use that to finish off so i asked the supplier and he had no experience so i thought the sensible thing would to ask on R2R, Randy and he gave me the simple answer its not the same so that would be the end of apart from the ridiculous posts going on about gold fish, building mortar ,scientific explanations etc all of which were unnecessary ridicule of products . The tank is doing well with all corals growing with great colour and it was not an excercise to make improvements just to have the best chance to maintain it that way whilst i get back to being able to do so. We all know its not one product that makes the difference its a combination of many things which work for some and not others . Thanks again for the interest as i have always followed your posts over the years. Bill

 

[maxwell]

Hi ,Thanks for the post i was not trying to validate a product or not just that the system has run for 10yrs and i have brought everything in the tank up to capacity including calx media ,dosing products ,all pumps and equip cleaned , lighting sorted as i will be incapacitated shortly not being able to maintain things for a while.The last thought having just seen the liquid mud arrive here in the UK for ease do i use that to finish off so i asked the supplier and he had no experience so i thought the sensible thing would to ask on R2R, Randy and he gave me the simple answer its not the same so that would be the end of apart from the ridiculous posts going on about gold fish, building mortar ,scientific explanations etc all of which were unnecessary ridicule of products . The tank is doing well with all corals growing with great colour and it was not an excercise to make improvements just to have the best chance to maintain it that way whilst i get back to being able to do so. We all know its not one product that makes the difference its a combination of many things which work for some and not others . Thanks again for the interest as i have always followed your posts over the years. Bill

BigE , I have also had to rder new cleaning items to assist and a Oceamo ICP test which inc the RO unit which i have stripped and new membrane and media . One thing i have done for the last 6 months is to run the sump with no lighting and just cleaning equip in there as i wanted to increase the nutrients in the tank again thats only specific to this tank .

 

[BeanAnimal]

Still no reef tank thread or pictures of your tank says it all to the good folk on here as you have neither ,you did not ask at all you stated you did not have ESP etc . My question was reasonable and polite based on my circumstances to which a lot of people are aware on R2R . Your post do not reflect what your saying as many are aware and i stand by if you do not participate in the hobby WHY question others who are hobbyist and have been for many years and still do not make scientific reasons for using this and that as all tanks are individual and are subjective to that reefer . Many manufacturers have spent thousands of pounds on R&D developing products that may work in certain tanks and methods and others not but people who state these are snake oils is decrying all the LFS which run businesses for our benefit and support there families if we all had your attitude the hobby would not exist,

Hi Maxwell - You are free to choose to use any product you wish for any reason that you wish, proven or unproven, based on factual marketing or utter nonsense. All up to you.

I answered your questions with what I feel to be valid information. This thread and conversation have absolutely nothing to do with my aquarium.

i prefer to be open minded and treat everybody with RESPECT. Thats the end of me posting on this matter.thank you

Except that is wholly opposite of your behavior here. You have attacked me because you did not like my answers, showing both lack of respect or open mindedness.

Happy Reefing and best of luck with your tanks.

 

[maxwell]

Hi Maxwell - You are free to choose to use any product you wish for any reason that you wish, proven or unproven, based on factual marketing or utter nonsense. All up to you.

I answered your questions with what I feel to be valid information. This thread and conversation have absolutely nothing to do with my aquarium.


Except that is wholly opposite of your behavior here. You have attacked me because you did not like my answers, showing both lack of respect or open mindedness.

Happy Reefing.

you are deluded have aread of your posts and attitude. and the truth hurts as having no tank or tank thread