Love this hobby. But how do you handle the morality of it?

[static416]

I originally got into this hobby about 20 years ago, and it was very different then.

Fish sometimes collected with dynamite or cyanide. Nobody quarantined anything. And reckless animal options like sharks, octopus, or large morays were not uncommon.

Got back into it 2 years ago, and I've been trying to do everything right.

Trying to avoid overstocking, QT'ing everything. Careful drip acclimation. Only buying things I'm sure I can care for.

I track everything I do in this hobby in a lot of detail, so I have statistics for a lot of things. And even as a person who I like to think is acting pretty responsibly, I have a lot of fish losses.

In the last 2 years, I have bought 98 fish:

• 47 are still with me
• 11 have gone missing (presumed dead)
  • Most of these are chromis, anthias, and damsels that likely killed each other off.
• 4 I've traded/donated
• 35 dead
  • 6 to disease. Mostly mystery diseases
  • 10 jumped to their death
  • 4 refused to eat
  • 8 murdered by another fish
  • 4 accidental deaths (pump turned off, ammonia spike in QT, etc)
  • 3 acclimation deaths

A roughly 50% death rate seems not great.

Let's try again if I filter out high-mortality stuff like Chromis, Anthias and Damsels.

That leaves 57 total:

• 25 still with me
• 3 traded/donated
• 28 dead
  • 5 disease
  • 10 jumped
  • 3 starved
  • 5 murdered
  • 3 accidental
  • 2 acclimation

So about the same really.

-----

I bring this up because I just got two Bluethroat Triggers yesterday, and while they looked good initially, I can already see that the male is not likely going to make it through QT. Probably my fault, might be something about the accilimation, but not sure.

I have literally been looking forward to buying this pair for 2 years, and I will probably lose one almost immediately.

It's getting sad/depressing.

There are so many variables involved before they even get to me. And even once I have them, it seems almost a roll of the dice if they make it a month.

How do you all handle this? What do you do to minimize the negative impact/death rate?

 

[musel101]

I originally got into this hobby about 20 years ago, and it was very different then.

Fish sometimes collected with dynamite or cyanide. Nobody quarantined anything. And reckless animal options like sharks, octopus, or large morays were not uncommon.

Got back into it 2 years ago, and I've been trying to do everything right.

Trying to avoid overstocking, QT'ing everything. Careful drip acclimation. Only buying things I'm sure I can care for.

I track everything I do in this hobby in a lot of detail, so I have statistics for a lot of things. And even as a person who I like to think is acting pretty responsibly, I have a lot of fish losses.

In the last 2 years, I have bought 98 fish:

• 47 are still with me
• 11 have gone missing (presumed dead)
  • Most of these are chromis, anthias, and damsels that likely killed each other off.
• 4 I've traded/donated
• 35 dead
  • 6 to disease. Mostly mystery diseases
  • 10 jumped to their death
  • 4 refused to eat
  • 8 murdered by another fish
  • 4 accidental deaths (pump turned off, ammonia spike in QT, etc)
  • 3 acclimation deaths

A roughly 50% death rate seems not great.

Let's try again if I filter out high-mortality stuff like Chromis, Anthias and Damsels.

That leaves 57 total:

• 25 still with me
• 3 traded/donated
• 28 dead
  • 5 disease
  • 10 jumped
  • 3 starved
  • 5 murdered
  • 3 accidental
  • 2 acclimation

So about the same really.

-----

I bring this up because I just got two Bluethroat Triggers yesterday, and while they looked good initially, I can already see that the male is not likely going to make it through QT. Probably my fault, might be something about the accilimation, but not sure.

I have literally been looking forward to buying this pair for 2 years, and I will probably lose one almost immediately.

It's getting sad/depressing.

There are so many variables involved before they even get to me. And even once I have them, it seems almost a roll of the dice if they make it a month.

How do you all handle this? What do you do to minimize the negative impact/death rate?

It sounds terrible when you put it like that. Your still doing good I my opinion your preserving what fish you can because one day I feel I my heart the oceans will be all but dead. Overfishing, global warming, runoffs that poison the ocean. Etc, in a hundred years aquariums will have the only fish and corals to help maybe one day to bring the reef and ocean back so keep preserving what you can and keep fighting the good fight.

 

[musel101]

And ice caps melting forgot that too

 

[iReefer12]

I noticed you mentioned drip acclimation… if you drip acclimate shipped fish, then you are exposing them to high levels of ammonia during the acclimation, this damages the gills and leads to death a few days later.

Match salinity of the shipping water in the qt, float the bag for 30-40 mins and then release discarding all bag water.

I didn’t know this in my first year and it’s something that’s helped me have more success.

Fish are delicate animals, they are hard to keep as pets, however in the ocean they are just as fragile, they get eaten by predator fish, sharks etc, attacked and killed fighting for their territory, fished and eaten by humans, all kinds of dangers for them. As aquarists, we strive to take the best care possible for them, we act responsibly and make sacrifices in order to take care of them. As long as we respect the livestock and we give them our best effort.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I originally got into this hobby about 20 years ago, and it was very different then.

Fish sometimes collected with dynamite or cyanide. Nobody quarantined anything. And reckless animal options like sharks, octopus, or large morays were not uncommon.

Got back into it 2 years ago, and I've been trying to do everything right.

Trying to avoid overstocking, QT'ing everything. Careful drip acclimation. Only buying things I'm sure I can care for.

I track everything I do in this hobby in a lot of detail, so I have statistics for a lot of things. And even as a person who I like to think is acting pretty responsibly, I have a lot of fish losses.

In the last 2 years, I have bought 98 fish:

• 47 are still with me
• 11 have gone missing (presumed dead)
  • Most of these are chromis, anthias, and damsels that likely killed each other off.
• 4 I've traded/donated
• 35 dead
  • 6 to disease. Mostly mystery diseases
  • 10 jumped to their death
  • 4 refused to eat
  • 8 murdered by another fish
  • 4 accidental deaths (pump turned off, ammonia spike in QT, etc)
  • 3 acclimation deaths

A roughly 50% death rate seems not great.

Let's try again if I filter out high-mortality stuff like Chromis, Anthias and Damsels.

That leaves 57 total:

• 25 still with me
• 3 traded/donated
• 28 dead
  • 5 disease
  • 10 jumped
  • 3 starved
  • 5 murdered
  • 3 accidental
  • 2 acclimation

So about the same really.

-----

I bring this up because I just got two Bluethroat Triggers yesterday, and while they looked good initially, I can already see that the male is not likely going to make it through QT. Probably my fault, might be something about the accilimation, but not sure.

I have literally been looking forward to buying this pair for 2 years, and I will probably lose one almost immediately.

It's getting sad/depressing.

There are so many variables involved before they even get to me. And even once I have them, it seems almost a roll of the dice if they make it a month.

How do you all handle this? What do you do to minimize the negative impact/death rate?

Pretty good charting and overall history

 

[static416]

Not shipped, just picked up from local stores. In the bag for less than an hour.

But still, interested in improving my acclimation technique, any losses here feel like a self-own.

My salinity is always higher than the store, because I typically run around 35.5-36, and the stores are often 32-34, sometimes even below 30 if they are running near-hyposalinity to minimize disease.

Was about to ask how you match the shipping water to the QT water, but you're saying the opposite. Match the QT water to the shipping water. That's an awesome idea, absolutely doing that going forwards.

It's also just way easier.

I noticed you mentioned drip acclimation… if you drip acclimate shipped fish, then you are exposing them to high levels of ammonia during the acclimation, this damages the gills and leads to death a few days later.

Match salinity of the shipping water in the qt, float the bag for 30-40 mins and then release discarding all bag water.

I didn’t know this in my first year and it’s something that’s helped me have more success.

Fish are delicate animals, they are hard to keep as pets, however in the ocean they are just as fragile, they get eaten by predator fish, sharks etc, attacked and killed fighting for their territory, fished and eaten by humans, all kinds of dangers for them. As aquarists, we strive to take the best care possible for them, we act responsibly and make sacrifices in order to take care of them. As long as we respect the livestock and we give them our best effort.

 

[iReefer12]

Yeah, most fish are shipped in 19-23ppt, I usually ask the shipper what they keep their salinity at and set, sometimes I forget or they don’t answer, it’s safe to set at 21ppt, fish can tolerate a 2ppt difference, they can also tolerate a ph difference. Temp not so much, and avoiding ammonia at all costs.

 

[AydenLincoln]

Wow I’m impressed you kept a chart and documented everything something most people won’t do but it’s very interesting to see it all written down in one place!

 

[AydenLincoln]

Pretty good charting and overall history

More than pretty good it’s freaking fantastic lol!

 

[static416]

In this particular case, there was about a 4 degree difference in temperature, the salinity was only about 0.5 ppt off.

I have been focusing on salinity difference more than anything else. Usually the temp is not an issue because during the drip acclimation the temp is gradually brought into line.

This time was different because water volume in the bag was so large. The drip acclimated the salinity, but the progress was so slow that it couldn't bring the temp up enough. So they were moved from 22C to 26C in one go. That probably didn't help.

I'll keep the temp in mind going forward.

Also, unfortunately, the tank wasn't cycled as well as usual and the ammonia spiked a bit within 24hrs. Not massive, but enough that it barely registered on my Seachem badge and the water was just starting to fog. Did an immediate water change and they seem better, but still not great.

I don't really want to leave a QT tank running 24/7 just in case I pick up something. But maybe I'll keep a media bag with cycled media in my sump.

Yeah, most fish are shipped in 19-23ppt, I usually ask the shipper what they keep their salinity at and set, sometimes I forget or they don’t answer, it’s safe to set at 21ppt, fish can tolerate a 2ppt difference, they can also tolerate a ph difference. Temp not so much, and avoiding ammonia at all costs.

 

[static416]

I have a detailed log of every animal, coral, and invert.

- Where I got it, when, and what it cost. When it died, the general and specific causes.
- When it went into QT and when it left (been slacking there a bit)
- Any behavioral issues, or conflicts with other animals.

Also track all of my hardware purchases, sales, and maintenance.

Every water test for every tank, with up to 12 parameters, though 80% of the time it's just Salinity, Alk, Phos and Nitrate. Typicaly 3-5 times a week. Linked to any ICP results that happened at the same time so I can compare accuracy.

What I've dosed, in what volume, and when.

Used to track water changes and saltwater batches, but waterchanges are automatic now, so it's pointless.

It all automatically rolls up into a running history by date. Below is the events across all logs for the last two weeks.

Wow I’m impressed you kept a chart and documented everything something most people won’t do but it’s very interesting to see it all written down in one place!

 

[static416]

This is part of the animals table, which includes inverts and corals, as well as fish

 

[Beef33]

Happened upon this thread and noticed you listed 10 jumped. I am starting a new tank and was on the fence if I need to get screens for the top. Do you have one? And would you recommend having one to help cut down on jumpers?

 

[iReefer12]

I leave a qt tank running 24/7, just a 10w return pump, no heat, no light. Drop some food in every once an a while to keep the bacteria active. Then fire up the heater when it’s needed. Keeping sponge in the sump is a good alternative for sure.

I’m experimenting with H202 dosing in QT right now as a means to fight parasites without using harsh chemicals. A struggle I have always had is that most chemicals adversely effect the nitrifying bacteria, leading to an ammonia spike.

 

[iReefer12]

Happened upon this thread and noticed you listed 10 jumped. I am starting a new tank and was on the fence if I need to get screens for the top. Do you have one? And would you recommend having one to help cut down on jumpers?

I would say yes. Most likely to jump species are wrasse, gobies, bennies. So if you plan on keeping any from that group it is a must.

 

[static416]

For me it's almost always a good idea to have a screen top. But does depend.

I had one on my 3' 65 gal because it was heavily stocked and I had lost a few fish (dracula goby, bicolor blenny, some other small ones).

When I upgraded and removed the lid during the multi-day transfer, I was sitting on the couch when I heard a very wet thwack on the floor. My Coris Wrasse of 1.5 yrs took the opportunity to go sky diving. Fortunately I was sitting right there and grabbed it.

But most of the jumping losses were in QT before I started always using a lid there too. In QT even non-jumpy fish may get startled in their new environment and do something crazy. Lost an otherwise very healthy Harlequin Tusk that way, and a Borbonus Anthias.

My new 160gal does not have a top, but it's relatively less stocked. That said, I've already lost a couple Chromis and a Midas blenny due to that choice. They got chased out when the Chromis and Anthias get excited in a school for no reason.

TLDR: if you're asking, the answer is probably to get a screen. And ALWAYS for QT.

Happened upon this thread and noticed you listed 10 jumped. I am starting a new tank and was on the fence if I need to get screens for the top. Do you have one? And would you recommend having one to help cut down on jumpers?

 

[Tuffyyyyy]

How big of a tank are you working with? That seems like a crazy amount of fish. In that same timeframe I think I've purchased/acquired 11 in my 100g tank, though I only have 3 of those remaining. Pretty depressing to think about now that I'm sitting here.

To your question though...I have an extremely difficult time with this. I believe that I take fish loss harder than most people. When I moved a couple of years ago I lost nearly all of the fish from my 120 gallon and it absolutely gutted me. If I had lost all fish then I was going to quit, but I had 4 survive and couldn't bring myself to get rid of them (thus starting over with the 11 fish over 2 years).

Ways that I kind of come to terms with the hobby are:
1) Sourcing from local people that have had the fish for years
2) Getting either pre-quarantined or captive bred
3) Donate to coral foundations

 

[Beef33]

For me it's almost always a good idea to have a screen top. But does depend.

I had one on my 3' 65 gal because it was heavily stocked and I had lost a few fish (dracula goby, bicolor blenny, some other small ones).

When I upgraded and removed the lid during the multi-day transfer, I was sitting on the couch when I heard a very wet thwack on the floor. My Coris Wrasse of 1.5 yrs took the opportunity to go sky diving. Fortunately I was sitting right there and grabbed it.

But most of the jumping losses were in QT before I started always using a lid there too. In QT even non-jumpy fish may get startled in their new environment and do something crazy. Lost an otherwise very healthy Harlequin Tusk that way, and a Borbonus Anthias.

My new 160gal does not have a top, but it's relatively less stocked. That said, I've already lost a couple Chromis and a Midas blenny due to that choice. They got chased out when the Chromis and Anthias get excited in a school for no reason.

TLDR: if you're asking, the answer is probably to get a screen. And ALWAYS for QT.

Thanks it’s 100% on the list for any tank for me. Losing one to it jumping sounds really sad.

 

[Seven Year Nap]

I guess for me it depends on what you are worried about from a morality standpoint. If you are worried about depleting the oceans then I guess we can focus on captive bred fish. If you are worried about killing fish, yes it definitely sucks, but unfortunately everything meets a timely demise eventually.....

I eat a lot of (non hobby) fish in a year. Death sucks but as long as you learn something from it and it helps you better care for animals in the future there is some saving grace.

 

[static416]

65 gal reef + 40gal pred tank to start. Recently 160gal reef and 120 gal pred reef.

I tend to buy small fish for the most part. Most of the losses are gobies, chromis, anthias, blennies, etc.

The only "large" fish I've lost was a Radiata Lionfish I got on discount because it was sick, and I couldn't save. Fuzzy Lion that got crushed by a rock. Moorish Idol that starved, that should not have purchased, and won't ever again. And that Harlequin Tusk that jumped in QT.

Ironically I've had two ich outbreaks right at the very beginning, but lost nothing from ich due to effective transfer to QT and letting the tank go fallow. Which is why I QT diligently now.

But while they were in QT for the outbreak, my Borbonus Anthias jumped.

How big of a tank are you working with? That seems like a crazy amount of fish. In that same timeframe I think I've purchased/acquired 11 in my 100g tank, though I only have 3 of those remaining. Pretty depressing to think about now that I'm sitting here.

To your question though...I have an extremely difficult time with this. I believe that I take fish loss harder than most people. When I moved a couple of years ago I lost nearly all of the fish from my 120 gallon and it absolutely gutted me. If I had lost all fish then I was going to quit, but I had 4 survive and couldn't bring myself to get rid of them (thus starting over with the 11 fish over 2 years).

Ways that I kind of come to terms with the hobby are:
1) Sourcing from local people that have had the fish for years
2) Getting either pre-quarantined or captive bred
3) Donate to coral foundations