I've been in this hobby for a year now and I just cant seem to make it work. I can you the communities advice, as I'm clearly doing something wrong.

[fish farmer]

I have to dose NO3 and PO4 or my levels would fall to zero due to my refugium. I need to have it as a nutrient export because I'm not equipped to make and store large volumes of rodi. AFR (for arguments sake) is basically just a 2 part with added magnesium and trace elements. AB+ is just amino acids and carbohydrates (ie food). The Microbactor products are beneficial bacteria products and used by a lot of reefers with great success, and the Chaeto Gro is just iron and trace elements that the chaeto would otherwise pull out of the tank if not replenished.

How much make up water do you need made up....it's a 30 gallon tank..?

 

[fish farmer]

You're doing way, way too much and dosing way too many conflicting supplements.



You're having to dose Nitrate and Phosphate because you're dosing multiple different carbon sources, you're using a carbon based alkalinity/calcium supplement in AFR that is going to be utilized at very different rates every time you screw with your nitrogen and phosphorus with the other products, and then you're dosing heterotrophic sewage processing bacteria because why? Why are you worried about growing chaeto when your nitrate and phosphate keep bottoming out? You're feeding multiple coral foods that are basically just phosphate paste despite having almost no coral mass in the tank.


Stop all of this. Simplify. Stabilize.


1.Go out and get simple alkalinity and calcium supplements. (I highly recommend Randy's 2 part recipes).
2.Test your alkalinity.
3.Dose up to 7.5 dkh. (dose the same amount of CA if using balanced supplement)
4.Test again at the same time the next day.
5.Calculate the difference.
6.Dose that amount each day for the next 7 days.
7.Test again, adjust the daily dose.

Do this for like 6 weeks. Keep the alkalinity stable. Feed the fish. Don't worry about feeding the corals. Dose phosphate if it drops below .04, nitrate below 5-10ppm. Don't dose any of the Clean or other carbon products. If you get a little hair algae, pull it out. Cyano, siphon it out.

Nothing you want to keep is going to do well with the alkalinity, phosphate, and nitrate yoyoing about like that.

This is great advice.

 

[EugeneVan]

For 30 gal tank, I will stop all the dosing. Just 10% water change every few days will do the trick and see how it go. Don't expect all the coral turn healthy overnight. It take at least couple weeks or even longer for the coral to recover

 

[tharbin]

I have to agree with those saying way too much way too soon. The numbers are guidelines not absolutes. Your tank is three months old with tiny frags. You should not be dosing anything nor running a fuge. My advice would be to stop all dosing for at least the next 6-9 months. Take the fuge off line and do weekly or bi-weekly small water changes 3 gallons or so. Let the tank stabilize, go through the uglies and start to find its rhythm. I would even skip the MB7. With ocean direct and reef mud, if you don't have bacteria you'll never have it.

 

[92Miata]

I have to dose NO3 and PO4 or my levels would fall to zero due to my refugium. I need to have it as a nutrient export because I'm not equipped to make and store large volumes of rodi.

If you're having to dose NO3 and PO4 and chaetogrow, you don't need a refugium, especially if you're going to dose MBR and use AFR.

AFR (for arguments sake) is basically just a 2 part with added magnesium and trace elements.

No, it's not. AFR is predominately calcium formate - Ca(HCO2)2 - which has to be metabolized by bacteria to release bicarbonate. In order to metabolize the formate, the bacteria need nitrogen and phosphorus, and they steal carbon from the formate.

It's 2 part, mag, trace elements and carbon dosing.

In a normal, healthy, balanced reef - AFR is basically time release 2-part with a little carbon kick. In a reef like yours that's yoyo-ing around with nutrient levels, it's being metabolized in fits and starts and making it impossible to keep alkalinity stable. And when you get enough nutrients to metabolize it, it's going to crash those and raise your alkalinity.

AB+ is just amino acids and carbohydrates (ie food).

Again, more carbon dosing.

The Microbactor products are beneficial bacteria products and used by a lot of reefers with great success,

They're bacteria, and alcohol. IE, carbon dosing.

and the Chaeto Gro is just iron and trace elements that the chaeto would otherwise pull out of the tank if not replenished.

Many of which are hazardous at high levels - and if your chaeto isn't growing because you don't have enough macronutrients, and you're dosing this stuff, you're going to get there.


Like I said - too many conflicting and overlapping supplements. Stop it all, and simplify. If you want to keep using the AFR, great - but you need to cut out the MB7, and the AB+ and all of the other stuff with carbon in it. If you want this tank to work, stop arguing and listen.

 

[rennjidk]

If you're having to dose NO3 and PO4 and chaetogrow, you don't need a refugium, especially if you're going to dose MBR and use AFR.


No, it's not. AFR is predominately calcium formate - Ca(HCO2)2 - which has to be metabolized by bacteria to release bicarbonate. In order to metabolize the formate, the bacteria need nitrogen and phosphorus, and they steal carbon from the formate.

It's 2 part, mag, trace elements and carbon dosing.

In a normal, healthy, balanced reef - AFR is basically time release 2-part with a little carbon kick. In a reef like yours that's yoyo-ing around with nutrient levels, it's being metabolized in fits and starts and making it impossible to keep alkalinity stable. And when you get enough nutrients to metabolize it, it's going to crash those and raise your alkalinity.


Again, more carbon dosing.


They're bacteria, and alcohol. IE, carbon dosing.


Many of which are hazardous at high levels - and if your chaeto isn't growing because you don't have enough macronutrients, and you're dosing this stuff, you're going to get there.


Like I said - too many conflicting and overlapping supplements. Stop it all, and simplify. If you want to keep using the AFR, great - but you need to cut out the MB7, and the AB+ and all of the other stuff with carbon in it. If you want this tank to work, stop arguing and listen.

I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to gain a better understanding. A lot of reefing advice is anecdotal and based on personal preferences and results. If you have relevant information based in science, like what you just posted, then I do listen. I'm well aware that AFR is actually calcium formate and affected by carbon sources. I was not aware that AB+, Chaeto Gro, and MBR all contained large amounts of organic carbon, because it's not heavily advertised as such. I'm going to cut out the MBR, AB+, and CG. I'm going to reduce the amount of chaeto in the fuge chamber by another 50% (which I've already done twice) and see how that goes. Hopefully the smaller fuge and the carbon by product of the AFR conversion will settle me into a more stable nutrient export, instead of leaving me 0. If it does not, I'll kill the fuge after.

 

[DanDman]

Good luck.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

You're doing way, way too much and dosing way too many conflicting supplements.



You're having to dose Nitrate and Phosphate because you're dosing multiple different carbon sources, you're using a carbon based alkalinity/calcium supplement in AFR that is going to be utilized at very different rates every time you screw with your nitrogen and phosphorus with the other products, and then you're dosing heterotrophic sewage processing bacteria because why? Why are you worried about growing chaeto when your nitrate and phosphate keep bottoming out? You're feeding multiple coral foods that are basically just phosphate paste despite having almost no coral mass in the tank.


Stop all of this. Simplify. Stabilize.


1.Go out and get simple alkalinity and calcium supplements. (I highly recommend Randy's 2 part recipes).
2.Test your alkalinity.
3.Dose up to 7.5 dkh. (dose the same amount of CA if using balanced supplement)
4.Test again at the same time the next day.
5.Calculate the difference.
6.Dose that amount each day for the next 7 days.
7.Test again, adjust the daily dose.

Do this for like 6 weeks. Keep the alkalinity stable. Feed the fish. Don't worry about feeding the corals. Dose phosphate if it drops below .04, nitrate below 5-10ppm. Don't dose any of the Clean or other carbon products. If you get a little hair algae, pull it out. Cyano, siphon it out.

Nothing you want to keep is going to do well with the alkalinity, phosphate, and nitrate yoyoing about like that.

This post says it all I’m not gunna repeat what he says.

 

[EugeneVan]

If you're having to dose NO3 and PO4 and chaetogrow, you don't need a refugium, especially if you're going to dose MBR and use AFR.


No, it's not. AFR is predominately calcium formate - Ca(HCO2)2 - which has to be metabolized by bacteria to release bicarbonate. In order to metabolize the formate, the bacteria need nitrogen and phosphorus, and they steal carbon from the formate.

It's 2 part, mag, trace elements and carbon dosing.

In a normal, healthy, balanced reef - AFR is basically time release 2-part with a little carbon kick. In a reef like yours that's yoyo-ing around with nutrient levels, it's being metabolized in fits and starts and making it impossible to keep alkalinity stable. And when you get enough nutrients to metabolize it, it's going to crash those and raise your alkalinity.


Again, more carbon dosing.


They're bacteria, and alcohol. IE, carbon dosing.


Many of which are hazardous at high levels - and if your chaeto isn't growing because you don't have enough macronutrients, and you're dosing this stuff, you're going to get there.


Like I said - too many conflicting and overlapping supplements. Stop it all, and simplify. If you want to keep using the AFR, great - but you need to cut out the MB7, and the AB+ and all of the other stuff with carbon in it. If you want this tank to work, stop arguing and listen.

I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to gain a better understanding. A lot of reefing advice is anecdotal and based on personal preferences and results. If you have relevant information based in science, like what you just posted, then I do listen. I'm well aware that AFR is actually calcium formate and affected by carbon sources. I was not aware that AB+, Chaeto Gro, and MBR all contained large amounts of organic carbon, because it's not heavily advertised as such. I'm going to cut out the MBR, AB+, and CG. I'm going to reduce the amount of chaeto in the fuge chamber by another 50% (which I've already done twice) and see how that goes. Hopefully the smaller fuge and the carbon by product of the AFR conversion will settle me into a more stable nutrient export, instead of leaving me 0. If it does not, I'll kill the fuge after.

Why make life so complicated. In instead of wasting all the time and efforts to try to make things work. Why not going back to basic (simple water change). With a 30 gal, you don't need carbon dosing to lower nitrate or phosphate. WC will just work. Don't get me wrong. I am totally into heavy dosing and carbon source, but you have to know exactly what you are doing by doing ICP test, with lots of test equipment to figure out what is in your water column as well as to tell your corals are happy or not.

 

[killer2001]

I would also like to note on my 3 month old system I have been doing a daily 1 gallon water change on my 45 gallon system, and I feel like it has helped with overall tank health. I'm still going through the uglies, I have some dinos, diatoms, and random strands of green hair algae here and there but it is not taking over and I am able to easily manage it along with my CUC.

 

[rennjidk]

Why make life so complicated. In instead of wasting all the time and efforts to try to make things work. Why not going back to basic (simple water change). With a 30 gal, you don't need carbon dosing to lower nitrate or phosphate. WC will just work. Good luck

Because that's not the method that I'm trying to accomplish. The carbon dosing was an unintentional by product of the method I was following and the products I was recommended. I would like to do a small to medium sized LPS and softie system based around AFR dosing and minimum WCs. That is my goal.

 

[EugeneVan]

Because that's not the method that I'm trying to accomplish. The carbon dosing was an unintentional by product of the method I was following and the products I was recommended. I would like to do a small to medium sized LPS and softie system based around AFR dosing and minimum WCs. That is my goal.

Your current method definitely is not working and that why you are here. Like the others said, if you are not listening and willing to try some other ways. Good luck. It is your time and your money.

 

[exnisstech]

I would also like to note on my 3 month old system I have been doing a daily 1 gallon water change on my 45 gallon system, and I feel like it has helped with overall tank health. I'm still going through the uglies, I have some dinos, diatoms, and random strands of green hair algae here and there but it is not taking over and I am able to easily manage it along with my CUC.

That what I have started doing recently on both of my systems. 1g a day on a 40g system and 4 gallons daily on approx 200g system. Too early to tell if it will be beneficial or not but its much simpler for me.

 

[rennjidk]

Your current method definitely is not working and that why you are here.

That is correct. The current iteration of my method is not working correctly.

Like the others said, if you are not listening and willing to try some other ways. Good luck. It is your time and your money.

This is false. I acknowledged the input and solutions of other people and made changes accordingly. Specifically, reducing the carbon sources available, and cutting back or eliminating the fuge in order to make nutrients more available to the AFR and stabilize the dKH. I'm simply choosing to not follow your advice of relying only on WC's, which is something completely different and not at all what I wish to accomplish.

 

[EugeneVan]

That is correct. The current iteration of my method is not working correctly.


This is false. I acknowledged the input and solutions of other people and made changes accordingly. Specifically, reducing the carbon sources available, and cutting back or eliminating the fuge in order to make nutrients more available to the AFR and stabilize the dKH. I'm simply choosing to not follow your advice of relying only on WC's, which is something completely different and not at all what I wish to accomplish.

My last piece of advice. Learn to walk first before you run. And please don't take it personally. It is sad to see from time to time people are giving up such a great hobby because they got burn out like coral, fishes are keep dying and all their hard earing money going down the drain.

 

[Double monti 61]

You can do it just don’t let it become to complicated to much information leads to to many problems do this don’t do this don’t do that.this is good that is not.I do ok with my simple 15 gallon tank using somewhat basic filtration and lighting and my own judgment on what I need to do to keep my system in good health.

 

[las]

this came out today.

 

[rennjidk]

My last piece of advice. Learn to walk first before you run. And please don't take it personally. It is sad to see from time to time people are giving up such a great hobby because they got burn out like coral, fishes are keep dying and all their hard earing money going down the drain.

I don't take it personally and I appreciate your input. I'm trying to accomplish a very specific style of reefing. This isn't my first tank, and I've already "learned to walk" so to speak. I've been in this game a while and I wanted to do something different. Isn't that what this hobby is about? I know you can have a successful reef tank with minimal WC and dosing AFR. Plenty of people on this forum do it successfully everyday. It just gets a little frustrating when people want to steer the conversation in a different direction. It's like if I was trying to grow some rare, non photosynthetic coral that had a species specific diet of live bred food, and people replied with "just grow Xenia, it's easy". Is it true? Yes. Is it my goal? Not really. Either way, I'm pretty sure I've found the source of my issue, so I'm going to adjust my methods and try that. Happy reefing!

 

[exnisstech]

I don't think people are trying to tell you how to run your tanks. We all do it differently and what works for one may not work for another. You came with a concern and pretty much 99% percent of the people (my math isn't perfect) said the same thing. Be patient and let things settle in. I have only been doing this for about seven years. I took me 2 years to realize success doesn't happen over night. Heck I'm still chasing it. I read and read about being patient, let things settle in, tank mature etc. I have read so much over the years that I can't even remember most of it. What I do remember is, the key to success in this hobby is the hardest for most, patience. Looking forward to pics when things come together for you.

 

[92Miata]

I will say here, I've never had a tank with stony corals that went more than about 4 weeks before water changes to maintain alkalinity became completely unsustainable, so I think that type of advice is ridiculous. I'm dosing 2 part as soon as alkalinity starts moving.

Corals (and coralline) can't photosynthesize without using bicarbonate - so if alkalinity isn't being used, things aren't growing, and when you're telling people "I didn't need to dose anything in the first year" part of what you're saying is you had little meaningful growth.

This sort of advice is a self fulfilling prophecy. You don't dose, corals don't get what they need most of the time, they don't grow, and so you don't need to dose. You get a little spike of growth every time you do a water change, but the rest of the time the corals are just sustaining.