Is this Ich?

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So my struggle continues. Fish seemed to recover and do well in QT until early January. I held copper at 2.4-2.5 ppm and did several rounds of general cure over 6 weeks. In early January I noticed my Eibli angel breathing heavily and not eating. No other symptoms. Copper level was starting to come down and at 2.35ppm at the time. I thought it may have been ammonia, I did a large water change and dosed another round of GC just in case. The Eibli recovered over a couple days. About 10 days went by, and I decided to move all the fish back to my DT. As I was moving them back over, all looked good, but my Potter's looked slightly off, I thought maybe just some stress in the QT tub.

After moving all fish back into the DT the potter's breathing got worse over a day, and then died the next night. 2-3 days later, the eibli breathing was worse, it stopped eating and started hiding, I caught it, fresh water dipped and added back to full CU in my QT tub. It only lasted another day. At the same time my flame angel got reclusive in the DT, stopped eating for 3 days, but then recovered. It ate for a day or 2, but then looked worse again. I elected to catch all fish and move back into the QT tub with 2.5ppm CU again about a week after I originally added them to the DT


Remaining surviving fish are back in my QT tub and have been for 1 week. Current CU level is 2.54ppm by Hanna. The lat 2 days the flame angel is hiding in pvc again, stopped eating, and breathing heavy. Through all this my other few remaining fish are showing absolutely no signs of disease. They include a blue hippo, 2 clown fish, a sapphire and azure damsel.

Basically, this seems like velvet to me, but it's only hitting my dwarf angels. Heavy breathing, reclusive, stop eating. But it started happening, and continues to happen in full strength copper.

Not sure what else I can do. Could this be a CU resistant strand of velvet that that dwarf angels are more susceptible to?

Should I increase CU to 2.75ppm, or try any other meds? I'm running out of ideas.

@Jay Hemdal
 
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Jay Hemdal

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So my struggle continues. Fish seemed to recover and do well in QT until early January. I held copper at 2.4-2.5 ppm and did several rounds of general cure over 6 weeks. In early January I noticed my Eibli angel breathing heavily and not eating. No other symptoms. Copper level was starting to come down and at 2.35ppm at the time. I thought it may have been ammonia, I did a large water change and dosed another round of GC just in case. The Eibli recovered over a couple days. About 10 days went by, and I decided to move all the fish back to my DT. As I was moving them back over, all looked good, but my Potter's looked slightly off, I thought maybe just some stress in the QT tub.

After moving all fish back into the DT the potter's breathing got worse over a day, and then died the next night. 2-3 days later, the eibli breathing was worse, it stopped eating and started hiding, I caught it, fresh water dipped and added back to full CU in my QT tub. It only lasted another day. At the same time my flame angel got reclusive in the DT, stopped eating for 3 days, but then recovered. It ate for a day or 2, but then looked worse again. I elected to catch all fish and move back into the QT tub with 2.5ppm CU again about a week after I originally added them to the DT


Remaining surviving fish are back in my QT tub and have been for 1 week. Current CU level is 2.54ppm by Hanna. The lat 2 days the flame angel is hiding in pvc again, stopped eating, and breathing heavy. Through all this my other few remaining fish are showing absolutely no signs of disease. They include a blue hippo, 2 clown fish, a sapphire and azure damsel.

Basically, this seems like velvet to me, but it's only hitting my dwarf angels. Heavy breathing, reclusive, stop eating. But it started happening, and continues to happen in full strength copper.

Not sure what else I can do. Could this be a CU resistant strand of velvet that that dwarf angels are more susceptible to?

Should I increase CU to 2.75ppm, or try any other meds? I'm running out of ideas.

@Jay Hemdal

Well, I don't see a clear solution here. There really isn't any such thing as "copper resistant" protozoans. Copper is a poison, that higher organisms have difficulty developing a resistance to that sort of thing in the short time the organisms are exposed to it. Additionally, Velvet is pretty much an equal opportunity killer - aside from a few species like sharks and eels, it hits all fish hard and fast.

That leaves flukes as a possible issue - some species of flukes are more inclined to infect certain host species over others. Prazi is a safe easy treatment, but it is sometimes difficult to fully break the life cycle of the flukes.

Then, there are a whole assortment of internal coccidia and microsporidian parasites that nobody knows anything about and which are not treatable. Those also can infect certain species over others, but I don't think you would have seen improvement in those cases, since those treatments don't work on these parasites.

What about a run of hyposalinity? That won't help with velvet, but it works better on flukes than prazi does.

Jay
 
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Thanks, I didn't think about hypo, I may give that a shot. The angels all seemed to be hit in cycles. They'd show signs of disease, recover after about 3ish days, then be hit again 5-10 days later. They didn't recover after the 2nd or 3rd time they showed symptoms.

I haven't run hypo before, but just read through your sticky. I'll plan for 35 days and target salinity of 1.010-1.011, that should keep my under the requirement for flukes.

Should I keep CU at 2.5ppm while I do this just in case, or does that seem pointless or create more stress at this stage? I can just let it fall as I water change to lower salinity.
 
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Thanks, I didn't think about hypo, I may give that a shot. The angels all seemed to be hit in cycles. They'd show signs of disease, recover after about 3ish days, then be hit again 5-10 days later. They didn't recover after the 2nd or 3rd time they showed symptoms.

I haven't run hypo before, but just read through your sticky. I'll plan for 35 days and target salinity of 1.010-1.011, that should keep my under the requirement for flukes.

Should I keep CU at 2.5ppm while I do this just in case, or does that seem pointless or create more stress at this stage? I can just let it fall as I water change to lower salinity.

You can run coppersafe during hypo, but I don't know about copper power. However, I would just let the level drop as you change out the water, no sense in stressing the fish too much with multiple treatments.

Jay
 
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@Jay Hemdal

Just to bring you up to speed, my flame angel died the same way my eibli and potters did, just as I was starting hypo, shortly after my message last month. So unfortunately I lost all 3 of my dwarf angels to whatever this was.

However, yesterday wrapped up 35 days of hypo and I'm starting to raise salinity back up. All fish remaining did great, aggressive eating, no signs of disease, minus one exception. (Only fish left: 2 clowns, hippo tang, sapphire and azure damsels)

A few days ago I noticed my azure damsel stopped eating, and had two small white patches that looked more like injury. Since then, it's started eating a bit again. No heavy breathing. I'm thinking maybe injury and aggression, since it's at the bottom of the pecking order in the tub. Not sure if there are any long term effects of hypo on fish that it could be? Doesn't seem at all like the previous disease I've been dealing with though, so I'm less concerned.

My DT has been fallow since 2/5, so about 45 days now. How long do you think I should go before reintroducing the fish? I've essentially ruled out velvet since the fish were good in hypo with basically no copper. Seems like an unknown disease, or possibly some type of flukes that hit the dwarf angels harder than the other fish. Should I shoot for 50-60 days? I know at this stage it's probably just a guess.

A part of me is also considering qt'ing a new dwarf angel in a separate tank with one of my existing fish, to see how that goes prior to putting anything back into the display.

Happy to hear your thoughts when you get a chance.
 

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@Jay Hemdal

Just to bring you up to speed, my flame angel died the same way my eibli and potters did, just as I was starting hypo, shortly after my message last month. So unfortunately I lost all 3 of my dwarf angels to whatever this was.

However, yesterday wrapped up 35 days of hypo and I'm starting to raise salinity back up. All fish remaining did great, aggressive eating, no signs of disease, minus one exception. (Only fish left: 2 clowns, hippo tang, sapphire and azure damsels)

A few days ago I noticed my azure damsel stopped eating, and had two small white patches that looked more like injury. Since then, it's started eating a bit again. No heavy breathing. I'm thinking maybe injury and aggression, since it's at the bottom of the pecking order in the tub. Not sure if there are any long term effects of hypo on fish that it could be? Doesn't seem at all like the previous disease I've been dealing with though, so I'm less concerned.

My DT has been fallow since 2/5, so about 45 days now. How long do you think I should go before reintroducing the fish? I've essentially ruled out velvet since the fish were good in hypo with basically no copper. Seems like an unknown disease, or possibly some type of flukes that hit the dwarf angels harder than the other fish. Should I shoot for 50-60 days? I know at this stage it's probably just a guess.

A part of me is also considering qt'ing a new dwarf angel in a separate tank with one of my existing fish, to see how that goes prior to putting anything back into the display.

Happy to hear your thoughts when you get a chance.
If you can post a pic and/or video of the damsel, that might help.
Personally, since we aren’t sure of what the disease issue is/was, I would opt for a full 60 day fallow period.
Jay
 
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I pulled the damsel for a minute to get some better pics, take a look. The issues are only on the left side. It’s been eating a little better the last 2 days, but still a bit off.

BDB4CF30-BA08-4074-99FD-7F06356D698C.jpeg

9D8CCCB2-6C6B-41D5-949D-DD0D64DB0935.jpeg


E44DB6E4-0A9B-4B88-BAE8-3D170AF2A040.jpeg

 

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Thanks, that’s what I was thinking as well.
What are its tankmates? If the injuries continue, that can be a problem.

Jay
 

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