Is this Ich?

[Tyson]

So my struggle continues. Fish seemed to recover and do well in QT until early January. I held copper at 2.4-2.5 ppm and did several rounds of general cure over 6 weeks. In early January I noticed my Eibli angel breathing heavily and not eating. No other symptoms. Copper level was starting to come down and at 2.35ppm at the time. I thought it may have been ammonia, I did a large water change and dosed another round of GC just in case. The Eibli recovered over a couple days. About 10 days went by, and I decided to move all the fish back to my DT. As I was moving them back over, all looked good, but my Potter's looked slightly off, I thought maybe just some stress in the QT tub.

After moving all fish back into the DT the potter's breathing got worse over a day, and then died the next night. 2-3 days later, the eibli breathing was worse, it stopped eating and started hiding, I caught it, fresh water dipped and added back to full CU in my QT tub. It only lasted another day. At the same time my flame angel got reclusive in the DT, stopped eating for 3 days, but then recovered. It ate for a day or 2, but then looked worse again. I elected to catch all fish and move back into the QT tub with 2.5ppm CU again about a week after I originally added them to the DT


Remaining surviving fish are back in my QT tub and have been for 1 week. Current CU level is 2.54ppm by Hanna. The lat 2 days the flame angel is hiding in pvc again, stopped eating, and breathing heavy. Through all this my other few remaining fish are showing absolutely no signs of disease. They include a blue hippo, 2 clown fish, a sapphire and azure damsel.

Basically, this seems like velvet to me, but it's only hitting my dwarf angels. Heavy breathing, reclusive, stop eating. But it started happening, and continues to happen in full strength copper.

Not sure what else I can do. Could this be a CU resistant strand of velvet that that dwarf angels are more susceptible to?

Should I increase CU to 2.75ppm, or try any other meds? I'm running out of ideas.

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So my struggle continues. Fish seemed to recover and do well in QT until early January. I held copper at 2.4-2.5 ppm and did several rounds of general cure over 6 weeks. In early January I noticed my Eibli angel breathing heavily and not eating. No other symptoms. Copper level was starting to come down and at 2.35ppm at the time. I thought it may have been ammonia, I did a large water change and dosed another round of GC just in case. The Eibli recovered over a couple days. About 10 days went by, and I decided to move all the fish back to my DT. As I was moving them back over, all looked good, but my Potter's looked slightly off, I thought maybe just some stress in the QT tub.

After moving all fish back into the DT the potter's breathing got worse over a day, and then died the next night. 2-3 days later, the eibli breathing was worse, it stopped eating and started hiding, I caught it, fresh water dipped and added back to full CU in my QT tub. It only lasted another day. At the same time my flame angel got reclusive in the DT, stopped eating for 3 days, but then recovered. It ate for a day or 2, but then looked worse again. I elected to catch all fish and move back into the QT tub with 2.5ppm CU again about a week after I originally added them to the DT


Remaining surviving fish are back in my QT tub and have been for 1 week. Current CU level is 2.54ppm by Hanna. The lat 2 days the flame angel is hiding in pvc again, stopped eating, and breathing heavy. Through all this my other few remaining fish are showing absolutely no signs of disease. They include a blue hippo, 2 clown fish, a sapphire and azure damsel.

Basically, this seems like velvet to me, but it's only hitting my dwarf angels. Heavy breathing, reclusive, stop eating. But it started happening, and continues to happen in full strength copper.

Not sure what else I can do. Could this be a CU resistant strand of velvet that that dwarf angels are more susceptible to?

Should I increase CU to 2.75ppm, or try any other meds? I'm running out of ideas.

@Jay Hemdal

Well, I don't see a clear solution here. There really isn't any such thing as "copper resistant" protozoans. Copper is a poison, that higher organisms have difficulty developing a resistance to that sort of thing in the short time the organisms are exposed to it. Additionally, Velvet is pretty much an equal opportunity killer - aside from a few species like sharks and eels, it hits all fish hard and fast.

That leaves flukes as a possible issue - some species of flukes are more inclined to infect certain host species over others. Prazi is a safe easy treatment, but it is sometimes difficult to fully break the life cycle of the flukes.

Then, there are a whole assortment of internal coccidia and microsporidian parasites that nobody knows anything about and which are not treatable. Those also can infect certain species over others, but I don't think you would have seen improvement in those cases, since those treatments don't work on these parasites.

What about a run of hyposalinity? That won't help with velvet, but it works better on flukes than prazi does.

Jay

 

[Tyson]

Thanks, I didn't think about hypo, I may give that a shot. The angels all seemed to be hit in cycles. They'd show signs of disease, recover after about 3ish days, then be hit again 5-10 days later. They didn't recover after the 2nd or 3rd time they showed symptoms.

I haven't run hypo before, but just read through your sticky. I'll plan for 35 days and target salinity of 1.010-1.011, that should keep my under the requirement for flukes.

Should I keep CU at 2.5ppm while I do this just in case, or does that seem pointless or create more stress at this stage? I can just let it fall as I water change to lower salinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, I didn't think about hypo, I may give that a shot. The angels all seemed to be hit in cycles. They'd show signs of disease, recover after about 3ish days, then be hit again 5-10 days later. They didn't recover after the 2nd or 3rd time they showed symptoms.

I haven't run hypo before, but just read through your sticky. I'll plan for 35 days and target salinity of 1.010-1.011, that should keep my under the requirement for flukes.

Should I keep CU at 2.5ppm while I do this just in case, or does that seem pointless or create more stress at this stage? I can just let it fall as I water change to lower salinity.

You can run coppersafe during hypo, but I don't know about copper power. However, I would just let the level drop as you change out the water, no sense in stressing the fish too much with multiple treatments.

Jay

 

[Tyson]

@Jay Hemdal

Just to bring you up to speed, my flame angel died the same way my eibli and potters did, just as I was starting hypo, shortly after my message last month. So unfortunately I lost all 3 of my dwarf angels to whatever this was.

However, yesterday wrapped up 35 days of hypo and I'm starting to raise salinity back up. All fish remaining did great, aggressive eating, no signs of disease, minus one exception. (Only fish left: 2 clowns, hippo tang, sapphire and azure damsels)

A few days ago I noticed my azure damsel stopped eating, and had two small white patches that looked more like injury. Since then, it's started eating a bit again. No heavy breathing. I'm thinking maybe injury and aggression, since it's at the bottom of the pecking order in the tub. Not sure if there are any long term effects of hypo on fish that it could be? Doesn't seem at all like the previous disease I've been dealing with though, so I'm less concerned.

My DT has been fallow since 2/5, so about 45 days now. How long do you think I should go before reintroducing the fish? I've essentially ruled out velvet since the fish were good in hypo with basically no copper. Seems like an unknown disease, or possibly some type of flukes that hit the dwarf angels harder than the other fish. Should I shoot for 50-60 days? I know at this stage it's probably just a guess.

A part of me is also considering qt'ing a new dwarf angel in a separate tank with one of my existing fish, to see how that goes prior to putting anything back into the display.

Happy to hear your thoughts when you get a chance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal

Just to bring you up to speed, my flame angel died the same way my eibli and potters did, just as I was starting hypo, shortly after my message last month. So unfortunately I lost all 3 of my dwarf angels to whatever this was.

However, yesterday wrapped up 35 days of hypo and I'm starting to raise salinity back up. All fish remaining did great, aggressive eating, no signs of disease, minus one exception. (Only fish left: 2 clowns, hippo tang, sapphire and azure damsels)

A few days ago I noticed my azure damsel stopped eating, and had two small white patches that looked more like injury. Since then, it's started eating a bit again. No heavy breathing. I'm thinking maybe injury and aggression, since it's at the bottom of the pecking order in the tub. Not sure if there are any long term effects of hypo on fish that it could be? Doesn't seem at all like the previous disease I've been dealing with though, so I'm less concerned.

My DT has been fallow since 2/5, so about 45 days now. How long do you think I should go before reintroducing the fish? I've essentially ruled out velvet since the fish were good in hypo with basically no copper. Seems like an unknown disease, or possibly some type of flukes that hit the dwarf angels harder than the other fish. Should I shoot for 50-60 days? I know at this stage it's probably just a guess.

A part of me is also considering qt'ing a new dwarf angel in a separate tank with one of my existing fish, to see how that goes prior to putting anything back into the display.

Happy to hear your thoughts when you get a chance.

If you can post a pic and/or video of the damsel, that might help.
Personally, since we aren’t sure of what the disease issue is/was, I would opt for a full 60 day fallow period.
Jay

 

[Tyson]

I pulled the damsel for a minute to get some better pics, take a look. The issues are only on the left side. It’s been eating a little better the last 2 days, but still a bit off.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I pulled the damsel for a minute to get some better pics, take a look. The issues are only on the left side. It’s been eating a little better the last 2 days, but still a bit off.

This is injury and not parasitical.

 

[Tyson]

Thanks, that’s what I was thinking as well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, that’s what I was thinking as well.

What are its tankmates? If the injuries continue, that can be a problem.

Jay

 

[Tyson]

@Jay Hemdal

Uggg, so I’m back with some issues again. Display was fallow until about mid/late April.

I think I went 65+ days. Late April to early May I started transferring fish back into the DT. During that time I also added a newly qt’t Eibli angel and bristle tooth tang.

I added a butterfly I QT’d to the tank in early July, and last week I noticed spots pop up out of no where. No issues since adding fish to DT in May. Here’s a timeline and pics:

5/1 - everything back in DT. All fish inspected pretty closely and looked very healthy
5/27 - new butterfly purchase and start of QT (30 days CU at 2.3-2.5ppm, 2 rounds GC)

7/3 - butterfly added to DT (everything clear and healthy for 2 months in DT)

7/26 - notice butterfly had speckles on fins (Eibli reclusive and didn’t eat)
7/27 - butterly with hazy fins, but less spots (Eibli reclusive and didn’t eat)
7/28 - seemed all clear, all fish eating fine
7/30 - some speckles back
7/31 - seemed to have less speckles
8/1 - more speckles
8/2 - more speckles

I think I might see a dot or 2 on another fish or 2 with clear fins, but can't really see anything else.
No heavy breathing or loss of appetite over the last 5 days. All fish still eating like pigs

Thinking this is ich, but the dots seem to come and go faster than ich. Also no clue how it got back in the system. I put a few coral frags in the DT about 50 days prior to reintroducing fish, maybe that.... Or, this was part of the original problem and I didn't get rid of it during the fallow period... This time is different with no rapid breathing so far though.

2 Pics from 8/1

Pic from today, 8/2

 

[MnFish1]

It looks like Ich to me. As it did before. If so - you would need to repeat the protocol - using copper - with maintaining levels per the solution you are using - then a fallow period again for your tank. Hope this helps

 

[Pickle_soup]

For ich to kill fish in 2-3 days, that seems a bit fast. I had tangs that had ich for months and were acting normally. Butterflies and angels are more susceptible to flukes from what I have read and they are hard to see. They like to hang out in the gills. Freshwater dip can dislodge some of them and you will be able to see what you're dealing here with. If you still have him, throw the LN in freshwater since he is gone anyway. Sorry about it. See if anything comes off after 3-5 minutes. Updated: From those pictures, it does look like ich.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal

Uggg, so I’m back with some issues again. Display was fallow until about mid/late April.

I think I went 65+ days. Late April to early May I started transferring fish back into the DT. During that time I also added a newly qt’t Eibli angel and bristle tooth tang.

I added a butterfly I QT’d to the tank in early July, and last week I noticed spots pop up out of no where. No issues since adding fish to DT in May. Here’s a timeline and pics:

5/1 - everything back in DT. All fish inspected pretty closely and looked very healthy
5/27 - new butterfly purchase and start of QT (30 days CU at 2.3-2.5ppm, 2 rounds GC)

7/3 - butterfly added to DT (everything clear and healthy for 2 months in DT)

7/26 - notice butterfly had speckles on fins (Eibli reclusive and didn’t eat)
7/27 - butterly with hazy fins, but less spots (Eibli reclusive and didn’t eat)
7/28 - seemed all clear, all fish eating fine
7/30 - some speckles back
7/31 - seemed to have less speckles
8/1 - more speckles
8/2 - more speckles

I think I might see a dot or 2 on another fish or 2 with clear fins, but can't really see anything else.
No heavy breathing or loss of appetite over the last 5 days. All fish still eating like pigs

Thinking this is ich, but the dots seem to come and go faster than ich. Also no clue how it got back in the system. I put a few coral frags in the DT about 50 days prior to reintroducing fish, maybe that.... Or, this was part of the original problem and I didn't get rid of it during the fallow period... This time is different with no rapid breathing so far though.

2 Pics from 8/1

Pic from today, 8/2

Yes - that is almost 100% marine ich, Cryptocaryon. The spots will come and go every day or so at first, then the spots will stay all of the time and increase in numbers. then, the fish will begin showing major symptoms; not eating, lethargic, rapid breathing.

Somehow, there was a biosecurity breach - but nothing in your description jumps out at me as the root cause. Sometimes though, it is the unstated that was the issue. I once had a person tell me that ich returned to their tank after being fallow for 75 days. Upon further questioning, they did mention, well, there was a goby that I just couldn't catch. More commonly, the biosecurity break is through the introduction of an invertebrate from an infected tank. It is also possible for quarantine processes to fail - ours is designed to be mild on the fish, but that also means that it may not always be 100% effective, even when done correctly. It is tough to judge, but I would say that the process is about 99% effective against protozoans and 90% effective against flukes.

Jay


Jay

 

[Tyson]

Thanks for the confirmation, at least I can come up with a game plan now.

The tank was 100% empty of fish for the fallow period.

However, the only thing it may have been. I added a few frags and a cleaner shrimp from a frag swap directly to my DT during my fallow period, about 50 days prior to adding fish back in. Maybe that reintroduced ich... I thought my risk of doing that with 50 days to go was quite low, but may have been a mistake...

I've been in the hobby for about 8 years now, but the last 7-8 months sure is testing my resolve!

It should be pretty easy to catch the LN and get it back in CU. I'll do that today or tomorrow. Sounds like I should have some time to work on getting the rest of the fish out and into a treatment tank.

I'll give this another go, and be super conservative. Probably 80-90 day fallow period, and similarly stick with an 80 day QT period with my invert only QT tank from here on out.

 

[McCarrick]

I've had good luck with running copper in conjunction with tank transfer. Might give that a go. BRS said that hyposalinity can make copper power more toxic so I didn't do copper in conjunction with the hyposalinity. I went through ick in my tank and after going fallow for 76 days I set up a qt tank for coral and inverts and all new fish get the tank transfer and copper. I did a freshwater dip to look for flukes but didn't treat for them at the time but probably would in the future. I also have formalin on hand just in case but also didn't do any formalin baths since the fish all looked good after 2 weeks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've had good luck with running copper in conjunction with tank transfer. Might give that a go. BRS said that hyposalinity can make copper power more toxic so I didn't do copper in conjunction with the hyposalinity. I went through ick in my tank and after going fallow for 76 days I set up a qt tank for coral and inverts and all new fish get the tank transfer and copper. I did a freshwater dip to look for flukes but didn't treat for them at the time but probably would in the future. I also have formalin on hand just in case but also didn't do any formalin baths since the fish all looked good after 2 weeks.

Coppersafe can be used in FW, so it can be used in hyposalinity, but both copper and hyposalinity can stress a fish, so there will be an increase in stress over just one of these treatments alone. Copper Power is essentially the same as coppersafe, so I don't see why it would be any different. Ionic copper is more toxic at lower salinity.

Jay