Is there anything at all i can do?

[x Sarah x]

I see what you mean and thank so much everyone,

The casualties are up to 8 now and all the most expensive fish, and because of that my partner has lost all hope i think, i feel ever so bad for him, hes so into the hobby, moreso than me and this tank was his world.

I will certainly pass all the info onto him and tell him about maybe having the fish in something temporary, the problem is we just don't have any room, but if theres a good chance they will pull through in a tub doing water changes daily then he might give it a shot, the problem is we're left with the scrags at the mo, zebra damsel, chromis, clowns, blenny, yellow tangs etc etc, all the expesnsive fsh have already gone, so hes got it in his head right now that the damage is done and whats left can be replaced, the only fish hes worried about is the regal tang as hes had it since a tiny baby, i know it sounds bad, its not in a cruel way, he really does feel terrible that the fish are suffering, but its got him so depressed that he just hasn't got his heart in it at the moment...

I spent 2 hours doing a water change yesterday to try and help and hes told me not to bother again because all the fish are going to die anyway, so i'm stuck here doing a water test twice a day just waiting for a little glimmer of hope but the levels just aren't budging

 

[ksc]

Nitrites are not dangerous to saltwater fish. Ammonia is. There are a few products that you can get to reduce/eliminate the ammonia. I would start running one of these asap. (Amquel works)

 

[ksc]

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Nitrite
Aquarists' concerns about nitrite are usually imported from the freshwater hobby. Nitrite is far less toxic in seawater than in freshwater. Fish are typically able to survive in seawater with more than 100 ppm nitrite![SIZE=-1]17[/SIZE] Until future experiments show substantial nitrite toxicity to reef aquarium inhabitants, nitrite is not an important parameter for reef aquarists to monitor. Tracking nitrite in a new reef aquarium can nevertheless be instructive by showing the biochemical processes that are taking place. In most cases, I do not recommend that aquarists bother to measure nitrite in established aquaria.

 

[x Sarah x]

But my ammonia isn't incredibly high, so why are the fish burning, the nitrite and nitrate are the only ones that are off the scale and seeing as nitrate isn't too much to worry about and has always been the same, it can only be the nitrite thats causing the problems...

The fish start off by getting cloudy eyes, then they begin to peel as does the protective film until it looks like snail slime hanging from them, they then develop laboured breathing and begin to sit still on the bottom or under the rocks, they lose their appetite and their fins become tattered and their scales damaged, they lose their colours and become pale and worn, about 12 hours before they perish they stop swimming altogether and lye on the bottom on their sides or upside down struggling to breath and in a couple of instances they have developed red blotches where the blood vessels have begun to burst inside them.

Something is burning them alive...

It all happens from start to finish in a couple of days, from swimming round and eating happily to dead.

 

[ksc]

You posted this yesterday,"Ammonia is on 0.25 and Nitrite is wavering between 0.02 and 0.05". Ammonia at .25 is deadly, nitrite at .02 is not. Think of ammonia as fire, your fish got burned and are showing the affects.From the article posted above:

Under some conditions, however, ammonia may be a concern. During the initial setup of a reef aquarium, or when new live rock or sand is added, an abundance of ammonia may be produced that the available mechanisms cannot detoxify quickly enough. In these circumstances, fish are at great risk. Ammonia levels as low as 0.2 ppm can be dangerous to fish.[SIZE=-1]16[/SIZE] In such instances, the fish and invertebrates should be removed to cleaner water, or the aquarium treated with an ammonia-binding product such as Amquel.

 

[stunreefer]

^^^^^

In such instances, the fish and invertebrates should be removed to cleaner water, or the aquarium treated with an ammonia-binding product such as Amquel.

 

[x Sarah x]

I have a couple concerns... we've decided to just let the tank cycle, theres only a couple fish left now, lost more money in fish than what the aquarium cost....

What it is, the ammonia has been on 0.25 now for two weeks and for over a week the nitrite was just below 0.5 and past few days was on 0.2...

The ammonia is not budging, surely after 2-3 weeks something would start to change, and the nitrite is now just above 0.1, which i find unusual as the ammonia usually drops to near nothing before the nitrite has a spike, but its seems the nitrite is disappearing and the ammonia just isn't budging.

The nitrate shows that the nitrite is converting at quite a fast pace now, yet the ammonia appears not to be converting to nitrite ?

Its been about 3 weeks since the levels started to rise, and its just been so long we thought we'd see some improvement by now ?

any idea as to how much longer this is going to go on for?

 

[kiraburk]

This won't answer your question above, but I just wanted to make one quick point because I know that everyone has pretty much covered everything.
I saw you mentioned that you're using a canister filter- make sure you clean out your filter often - with canister filters you can get detritus collecting within the filter which can cause a lot of problems with your water parameters- doing as much bad as it should be good.

 

[x Sarah x]

This won't answer your question above, but I just wanted to make one quick point because I know that everyone has pretty much covered everything.
I saw you mentioned that you're using a canister filter- make sure you clean out your filter often - with canister filters you can get detritus collecting within the filter which can cause a lot of problems with your water parameters- doing as much bad as it should be good.

I am aware they can contribute to the nitrate levels which we're not concerned about right now, will they contribute to the other levels too then?

we cleaned one of them the other day, might clean the other one too if it will help with the others, just didn't want to wash away too much good bacteria at this delicate time and the sumps not been running long enough to do a good job yet.

 

[Emc]

What temperature are you keeping the tank at? Temperature has a direct impact on the form of nitrogen present in the system. NH3 (the more toxic form of nitrogen/ammonia) is predominant at higher temperatures. If you gradually lower the temperature it may reduce the amount of NH3 in the system.

Also, have you and your partner considered taking the remaining fish to a fish store for credit until you get your cycle under control or break down the tank? If you have given up then it seems that at a minimum you could return the fish rather than let them suffer further.

 

[x Sarah x]

It tends to sit about 26 degrees C, never goes higher than 27, never lower than 25 unless we do a water change then it might go down to 23-24 for a couple of hours.

The remaining fish seem to be ok, theres a scooter mandarin, lawnmower blenny, hawkfish, yellow tangs, yellow tail damsel, regal tang and Pyjama cardinal, plus 2 starfish and 4 corals that are totally uninfected by it all.

Our only worry was the regal tang, she looked at deaths door 3 days ago for a couple of days, and just lately has perked up a treat, didn't feed them tonight, so not sure if she'll eat, but she moving again and even though still has no protective film, her skin looks a lot better and her eyes clearer.
So maybe something is going in the right direction...

We did consider sending them to a shop, but our local doesn't have the accommodation, next nearest place doesn't have the room right now and the last option i wouldn't send a flea to, they're stuff is just plastered in Ich and fungal growth, i'd rather risk it and hope they survive than send them to sudden death!

 

[Ike]

I'd like to make a few things really clear that have been brought up in this thread...

1.) As someone else mentioned nitrite is not very toxic to marine fish, especially at the typical levels we see.

2.) Your fish had/have parasites because there were parasites present on one of them you added and in your tank already.

3.) UV sterilzers will not cure ich or other parasite outbreaks and won't even do a whole lot to prevent their spread and progression.

4.) The parasites were/are your main problem and the ammonia issues were just making matters worse.

5.) With that amount of tangs, angels, and fish in general it amazing you have anything left... Not quarantining was very foolish and a death sentence for those fish. Law of averages there's just no way you weren't going to introduce a fish with parasites.

6.) If any fish live through this you're going to have one heck of a time adding any other fish and not having them get sick and possibly starting this whole process over again.

What size tank is this we're talking about? I sure hope it's huge with that kind of fish load and all the tangs, triggers, and angels. Sorry to come off as harsh but this whole thing should be a lesson to read more and go slow.

 

[x Sarah x]

Its a 5x2x2 ft, 2 fish lived in the sump and and all fish were fine before we upgraded the tank! we've had most of the fish for 2 years now...

The ich only broke out when the fish became stressed when the levels began to fluctuate...

 

[Ike]

Its a 5x2x2 ft, 2 fish lived in the sump and and all fish were fine before we upgraded the tank! we've had most of the fish for 2 years now...

The ich only broke out when the fish became stressed when the levels began to fluctuate...

That's a crazy amount of fish for that size tank, especially with how many tangs you had. Looking back at your thread with fish photos it looks like parasites were probably already a problem.

 

[Stray32]

I am aware they can contribute to the nitrate levels which we're not concerned about right now, will they contribute to the other levels too then?

we cleaned one of them the other day, might clean the other one too if it will help with the others, just didn't want to wash away too much good bacteria at this delicate time and the sumps not been running long enough to do a good job yet.

These don't need to be scrubbed. Use fresh saltwater and simply rinse the detritus off of the sponges and carbon. When I used to run a canister, I had lots of BENEFICIAL stuff living in it besides the bacteria, like pineapples sponges, tubeworms, pods, stars, and collonista snails.

 

[Ike]

These don't need to be scrubbed. Use fresh saltwater and simply rinse the detritus off of the sponges and carbon. When I used to run a canister, I had lots of BENEFICIAL stuff living in it besides the bacteria, like pineapples sponges, tubeworms, pods, stars, and collonista snails.

The problem with canister and other mechanical filters is the media needs to be changed before it get vacterial colonies and starts breaking down nitrites and ammonia. Much like a trickle filter, detritus isn't the problem as much as how efficiently it converts ammonia and nitrites into nitrates. Ideally you want your live rock and sand to convert it and to have a good protein skimmer removing things before they break down into ammonia.

 

[DaveA]

The tank wasn't fully cycled, the fish should have never been placed in the tank until your Ammonia and Nitrites were at zero for at least a week. I hate to sound harsh, but this is a reality when it comes to saltwater tanks. Water changes might help some, but time it the only true cure for the cycle. You have had the tank set up for at least 2 weeks before adding any livestock, and that should have been a few hermits and snails.

I hope the rest of your fish pull through...

+1 The tank is cycling again because you stirred up the old sand bed and you have new sand.

You should do DAILY LARGE water changes and use LOTS of carbon until things settle down.

 

[juicemonkey]

Have you check the temp? With the stress and if you have a high temp you could have a ich outbreak. Even with the UV light, stirring the sand up and a temp change could of open the flood gates.

 

[Ike]

Have you check the temp? With the stress and if you have a high temp you could have a ich outbreak. Even with the UV light, stirring the sand up and a temp change could of open the flood gates.

What makes you think marine ich has anything to do with high tempertures or temperature fluctuations??? In freshwater there are some old studies that correlate temp change with freshwater ich (a TOTALLY different parasite) but there's nothing to suggest temperature has any relation to marine ich outbreaks.

 

[DaveA]

Have you check the temp? With the stress and if you have a high temp you could have a ich outbreak. Even with the UV light, stirring the sand up and a temp change could of open the flood gates.

Well, we should all check our temps at all times, but why do you think temperature could make an ammonia and nitrate spike???? I highly doubt that is the problem here.