How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

The last several tank examples were examples of unresolved cycle analyses. the aquarium keeper disagreed with my finding (that every cycle is safe, it's why your fish are living)

those were posted so we can keep the focus simple:

-what does the full tank shot look like, does it look like a crashing/dying reef or a living reef, snapped in time?

-what does fish distribution look like> we've been discussing it for pages on end here. stressed, burned fish hover at the top and can't breathe or they flash around the tank wildly and die on the bottom. obvious bad happens when ammonia is truly backed up,

The coming pages we will get back to collecting examples of folks adhering to updated cycling science and managing fish disease using fish disease protocols but before we close out the noncompliant's page lol I wanted to post this gem.


this massive $$$$$$$ tank ran heavy copper for weeks on end and could not kill this biofilter, the bacteria on the rocks

Life after copper in Display tank

Ok everyone. This post is not for the “I told you so people “. I have a 360g reef n fish tank with massive amounts of rock. I just finished about 2 months of therapeutic level coppersafe treatment in my display tank for Ich and velvet, I saved a lot of fish so I’m happy I did. Not to mention had...

www.reef2reef.com

and several people are chiming in they've done the same, and no loss of cycle.


So...if direct and sustained copper can't even kill a biofilter, what's the chances these tanks prior lost their filtration ability months after the cycle completed? 0% chance.

 

[ascaley]

Just found this thread - thank you - I've been running a fishless cycle for a month. Fake rock, live sand, Dr Tims. Red Sea test kits. I've dosed with Ammonia 3 times, Ammonia always drops back over 2-3 days then sticks at 0.8. Nitrites showing as ~1ppm, Nitrates ~20ppm - if I've read correctly I should be good to go? And have lost 2 weeks I could have been shopping :-D?

 

[brandon429]

that is 100% good to go

because our thread uses rules backwards to every cycling thread on the internet and I thank you for posting

can you show us a pic of your full tank shot/we assess rock surface area that way. given this contact time, the feeding, the dosing of bottle bac and ammonia movement you are fine

we don't actually believe the ammonia sticks; it's going to full control .00x ppm (as nh3, your test reads as nh4 and must be converted to ten times less levels to be reef-specific)

the non digital tester can't show that full drop correctly so it indicates a false stall.

You dont even need a water change, in fact it's a better proof of cycle ready to add life in the suspect water as it sits.

this isn't mean, unethical or anything different than our prior 3 years here

*watch out for acclimation stresses. if your salinity is closeish to the holding water for the fish, just add them. floating for two hours was killing a guys fish recently and he didn't disclose that in his cycle thread, everyone kept thinking it was tank ammonia and it never is. when we had him just add in the clowns they lived just fine.


*disease protocol is discussed in every cycle here. your tank does not require fallow, you started dry it seems

so if you add pre quarantined fish, you're still in protocol. if they're not quarantined they're open to the common challenges a few mos down the line we'd expect. a small % of reefers don't require a disease protocol to keep fish long-term, most do.

 

[ascaley]

that is 100% good to go

because our thread uses rules backwards to every cycling thread on the internet and I thank you for posting

can you show us a pic of your full tank shot/we assess rock surface area that way. given this contact time, the feeding, the dosing of bottle bac and ammonia movement you are fine

we don't actually believe the ammonia sticks; it's going to full control .00x ppm (as nh3, your test reads as nh4 and must be converted to ten times less levels to be reef-specific)

the non digital tester can't show that full drop correctly so it indicates a false stall.

You dont even need a water change, in fact it's a better proof of cycle ready to add life in the suspect water as it sits.

this isn't mean, unethical or anything different than our prior 3 years here

*watch out for acclimation stresses. if your salinity is closeish to the holding water for the fish, just add them. floating for two hours was killing a guys fish recently and he didn't disclose that in his cycle thread, everyone kept thinking it was tank ammonia and it never is. when we had him just add in the clowns they lived just fine.


*disease protocol is discussed in every cycle here. your tank does not require fallow, you started dry it seems

so if you add pre quarantined fish, you're still in protocol. if they're not quarantined they're open to the common challenges a few mos down the line we'd expect. a small % of reefers don't require a disease protocol to keep fish long-term, most do.

That’s great! Thanks.

Here are a couple of pics (sorry for reflection!)

 

[brandon429]

that will indeed do, and nice setup! any fish added correctly/ no acclimation issues are simply going to work just fine as all other searches for fish-in cycles show. they didn't even bother to wait as long as you, nor verify nitrification 3x, they just dosed/add fish and that too was safe on any seneye study we can see. Thank you for contributing in pattern to our new rules for cycling science

isn't this method so fun: if your fish live it's cycled and if they don't it isn't (of course after ensuring your salinity reasonably matches fish source water salinity and just add them, net them over without mixing water)


other cycling threads are test debates until the cows come home. we only want to see the cows, in the field lol. first time we get a field full of dead cows, our science is bad and should be retired. if we keep turning out cows in the field until 2025 and beyond then ima need a new podium talk from macna telling me about how cycle stalls work.

 

[btmedic04]

Interesting thread, and I'm glad I found it at this time as I'm cycling my 40b set up after having to tear it down for a month for renovations to my home. Tank has been wet for 13 days, and has had fritz turbo start and pns substrate sauce for 9 days. Ammonia source was algeabarns nitrocycle which I followed their directions which dosed the tank to over 8ppm on my api kit. Last night, my kit showed 0ppm ammonia (I've long considered the .25ppm as margin of error) while my nitrite reading is 5+ ppm. 30 years of aquarium experience is screaming at me to wait for nitrite to show 0, but I'm willing to try this. Would I be good to go after a 20% water change? I've got about 40lb of rock, 30lb of sand and 24x 2x2 marinepure cubes in the sump. Attached are pics of each. Forgive the cloudiness in the fts, that was day 3 after I finally settled on the aquascape. The water is now clear.

I've kept the fish from before the tear down in a frag system, and they've all been long since quarantined and each are several years old. My LFS has biota captive bred yellow tangs that are super tiny and I'm considering one. If i pull the trigger on that, then it will be quarantined for a month minimum. I've had to chase my green clown goby twice for ich outbreaks in my reef in the past and I'd rather not do it a third time as it requires me to remove all rock every time ive had to catch him lol

 

[brandon429]

Your post is 110% meant for this thread

That sauce cycle +fritz is ready it's currently the best cycler on the market in my opinion. Your parameters are exactly what non digital kits show during cycles, and you've met the day 10 wait time we use here as the sole timing marker for every cycle.

I'm 100% certain any fish you add will live. The tank is absolutely cycled so glad you posted. Would you provide an updated tank picture once fish are in the system a few days

Pictures of happy fish a few days after addition are the recurring proof that the cycle was indeed ready

We don't factor nitrite at all; if it said 260 I still wouldn't factor it (nitrite measurement is only valid in freshwater)

There's something you need to know about those bricks: ok to run them but they don't do anything helpful. I realize we're trained to buy them and cannot feel ok without them so it's harmless to use them, but they don't help your tank carry any more fish than your ready rocks do. What maxes out your fish carry is behavioral and disease limitations, in no way does reef tank rock need embellishment for more surface area

This helps you be freer when it's time to clean and when it's time to design changes to the reef

 

[btmedic04]

Your post is 110% meant for this thread

That sauce cycle +fritz is ready it's currently the best cycler on the market in my opinion. Your parameters are exactly what non digital kits show during cycles, and you've met the day 10 wait time we use here as the sole timing marker for every cycle.

I'm 100% certain any fish you add will live. The tank is absolutely cycled so glad you posted. Would you provide an updated tank picture once fish are in the system a few days

Pictures of happy fish a few days after addition are the recurring proof that the cycle was indeed ready

We don't factor nitrite at all; if it said 260 I still wouldn't factor it (nitrite measurement is only valid in saltwater and even then use digital hanna meter vs api)

There's something you need to know about those bricks: ok to run them but they don't do anything helpful. I realize we're trained to buy them and cannot feel ok without them so it's harmless to use them, but they don't help your tank carry any more fish than your ready rocks do. What maxes out your fish carry is behavioral and disease limitations, in no way does reef tank rock need embellishment for more surface area

This helps you be freer when it's time to clean and when it's time to design changes to the reef

Thanks bud, I'll move over my clown fish and green clown goby (if I can catch him lol) tomorrow to simulate what most folks do once the cycle is complete.

Regarding the marinepure cubes, they came with the kit, so I rinsed and threw them in. If anything they're in there for more pod habitat, and I can use them to seed any new tanks I might set up. I do know for one thing, once I get to the point of putting chaeto in that chamber, I'll have to move the cubes to the darker chambers. Marinepure makes a great surface for growing micro and nuisance algaes lol

 

[brandon429]

What fish should i get for cycling saltwater

I think BRS knows what they are doing

www.reef2reef.com

that is an example of our 34 pages of work being fully rejected by a very angry mob

the premise is rejected....not the outcome examples nor those that are coming. The reason I like to contrast trainwreck cycling threads with the sheer peace we all experience in this forum is to show how testy web forums are


I typed nothing in that thread that I didn't type on page one here.

That information inflames them there, they'd ban me if they could for my insolence

yet here that same information runs new cycling science for all coming pages and what we do isn't going to change in any future year. we are solid consistent in this thread. conflict is evolution.



in the end readers remember this: noncycled tanks can't carry fish for days on end. fish die quickly in non cycled tanks.

 

[Cell]

We don't factor nitrite at all; if it said 260 I still wouldn't factor it (nitrite measurement is only valid in saltwater and even then use digital hanna meter vs api)

He meant freshwater, not saltwater here.

 

[brandon429]

hey great call!

that error undoes my point fully, well done catch. updating.






****VERY nice find. the rare seneye audit of a cycling challenge.

A bunch of large fish dying off from disease is a certain cycle challenge; it's easy to overwhelm bacteria. This thread below shows simply how owning a calibrated seneye stops ammonia panic in it's tracks, it allows for precision disease factoring and fixes; this is a prime example of updated cycling science because nobody is fearing ammonia and nobody is rushing out to buy more bottle bac for an impending crash like our prior examples show

mini summary: no seneye=cycling madness

seneye=peace, calm, assurance of the cycling ruleset we already know applies to all display reefs even if they don't own a seneye. see below

Tank Disaster

Hey guys, Following a replacement tank set up during which there appears to have been accidental contamination with QT water, we have lost 9 out of the 11 fish in the tank (2 Pyramid Butterflies, pair of Swallowtail Angels, a Watanabe Angel, pair of Clowns, a Copperband, and a Blotched...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Mafoo]

Hi All

Very interesting thread, I am hoping you can clarify something for me.

This is the first tank (170gal) that I have cycled using bottle bac (Dr Tim’s). Have done many tanks in many other ways. It’s 23 days wet, Caribsea Life Rock and sand.

I followed Dr Tim’s instructions and saw Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate rise as expected but Ammonia never came down as I was expecting it to. On a Salifert it read 1.5 consistently, on a Red Sea test over 2.0. I only added Ammonium as per instructions and the number of times suggested.

After 14 days I added another bottle of bac and I also moved my Seneye with a new slide (after soaking per instructions) from an existing tank where the Seneye has consistently read 0.001.

Now the Seneye initially read 0.115 in the new tank and with a few water changes over a week, it’s down at 0.069 and stays steady unless I do another 10% ish water change, then it decreases a little (approx 0.01) and stays steady again.

However, without a water change the Seneye isn’t moving.

Salifert Ammonia is currently reading in the range of <0.15 (but really depends on light maybe 0 and maybe 0.25) and Red Sea 1.2 (ish). I have seen the Salifert definitely go down though from at least 1.5.

Nitrite has gone up and come back down to about 0.1 and Nitrate has done the same and currently at about 5.

I guess my question is really about the Seneye. Should it be reading lower or is my tank safe for inhabitants in its current state? I physically can’t do a large water change.

I’m a little confused! If you need more info, just let me know.

Thank you in advance for any advice/help

Matt

 

[brandon429]

Matt

So so glad to have any seneye input. I would not think you can calibrate your seneye/ slide prep/ trim settings along with a cycling reef; its ideal to reference a seneye once we have readings from it off a fully running reef, even if it's just a small nano reef.

How many gallons is your tank here

Do you have any other reefs you can benchmark on

*I already have a cycle call ready for your system based off precedent: nobody fails to keep fish after ten days wait on any bottle bac, much less a double run.

If your tank is smallish, just do the biggest water change so you don't have algae fuel and add some proof of life
It's not flippant advice given track record for waits this long...I don't think we're seeing the first time ammonia didn't move after day ten although with seneye I'm willing to hear any measure, any input at all so we can get patterns from the input

Also if your seneye is saying that above, and you have already benched it on a running reef and did 48 hours slide prep and made all software tunings for the new meter then I'm highly interested in the actual ammonia readings for sure, they're not in spec but without calibration I'm not concerned- wait time this long will matter the most in tank readiness.

 

[Mafoo]

Matt

So so glad to have any seneye input. I would not think you can calibrate your seneye/ slide prep/ trim settings along with a cycling reef; its ideal to reference a seneye once we have readings from it off a fully running reef, even if it's just a small nano reef.

How many gallons is your tank here

Do you have any other reefs you can benchmark on

*I already have a cycle call ready for your system based off precedent: nobody fails to keep fish after ten days wait on any bottle bac, much less a double run.

If your tank is smallish, just do the biggest water change so you don't have algae fuel and add some proof of life
It's not a flippant advice given track record for waits this long...

Also if your seneye is saying that above, and you have already benched it on a running reef and did 48 hours slide prep and made all software tunings for the new meter then I'm highly interested in the actual ammonia readings for sure, they're not in spec but without calibration I'm not concerned- wait time this long will matter the most in tank readiness.

Thanks for the quick reply.

The Seneye came out of my 100lt nano which was reading 0.001 when I swapped them out. After about a week (so 5 days ago), I soaked a new slide for 48 hours and then replaced the old slide.

I could put the Seneye back in the nano (has been running for 2.5 years) and see what it reads? Would that be a worthwhile task, it’s easy enough to do.

The new tank is 170gal.

Thanks again for the quick reply!

Matt

 

[brandon429]

Hey that's so so so helpful and rare pls let me know what the cycling tank reads today along with the nano tests

These calibration runs are very rare, and your seneye prep was for sure above par. Very very great mystery here develops. The final clue will be health or harm from any test animals, where I fully believe no harm will be done based on precedent. Your seneye gives powerful sway in the matter though, that's pretty dang benchmarked lol

 

[Mafoo]

Hey that's so so so helpful and rare pls let me know what the cycling tank reads today along with the nano tests

These calibration runs are very rare, and your seneye prep was for sure above par. Very very great mystery here develops. The final clue will be health or harm from any test animals, where I fully believe no harm will be done based on precedent. Your seneye gives powerful sway in the matter though, that's pretty dang benchmarked lol

So I moved the Seneye to the nano and it's reading NH3 0.001 mg/l(ppm).

Update: I have now moved it back to the new tank and it's back at 0.069-0.070.

I'll do another water change today, maybe two, I wish I could do just one big one but that's difficult.

Any other recommendations?

Thanks again for your help! Appreciated

 

[LisaMarie]

@brandon429 do you have a write-up of how you recommend cycling a tank from beginning to cycled? (Apologies if I've somehow missed it) I've been reading dozens and dozens of threads on cycling and always find your input incredible. You've helped so many! Ive cycled dozens of tanks over the years but always with live rock. This will be my first dry rock attempt.

 

[LRT]

@brandon429 do you have a write-up of how you recommend cycling a tank from beginning to cycled? (Apologies if I've somehow missed it) I've been reading dozens and dozens of threads on cycling and always find your input incredible. You've helped so many! Ive cycled dozens of tanks over the years but always with live rock. This will be my first dry rock attempt.

Well put @LisaMarie I'm not sure if there is a better source for cycling knowledge.

 

[brandon429]

Mafoo: that's some of the most valuable data I've seen in the whole thread thank you, it's just handy to again see what a fully stocked nano+a separate full size reef runs at/ low thousandths calibrated, and a stark drop of nh3 in the main tank but not a move back to full calibration safety, and that's the portion I can't explain and am willing to consider any options especially if we get more reports like that in pattern. If you change water and add fish, they're not producing waste anywhere near a challenge load and they'll be fine.

Lisa thank you and LRT for being helpful cycle support team. If I could distill this entire thread into one handy cycling arrangement for a dry start tank it's this:

Add either Dr Tims bac or fritz or biospira per direction on gallonage for your new reef. Add in one pinch of very finely ground fish food any brand.

Wait ten days, do a water change fully if possible as this is wastewater

Then begin reefing
The food vs ammonia saves all overdose issues and supplies carbon and meets the delay time of the ammonia line from a cycling chart. The predictability of safely carrying fish by a specific date is the #1 thing I hope we can proof in this thread.

Dr. Reefs entire bottle bac thread findings were based on full water changes which measures only leftover bacteria behind and none cheating as suspended in the water

Doing a bottle bac + feed + 10 days wait then decide on fish disease protocols as you change water and begin is the most updated cycling science I know. I don't believe it can fail because a couple cycling clowns in totally clean water after ten days bac buildup meets already tested timeframes from other threads.

This guy built a whole reef on day one


We're waiting to day ten to add two fish, see why it's actually pretty safe to do testless cycling:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

Mafoo: that's some of the most valuable data I've seen in the whole thread thank you, it's just handy to again see what a fully stocked nano+a separate full size reef runs at/ low thousandths calibrated, and a stark drop of nh3 in the main tank but not a move back to full calibration safety, and that's the portion I can't explain and am willing to consider any options especially if we get more reports like that in pattern. If you change water and add fish, they're not producing waste anywhere near a challenge load and they'll be fine.

Lisa thank you and LRT for being helpful cycle support team. If I could distill this entire thread into one handy cycling arrangement for a dry start tank it's this:

Add either Dr Tims bac or fritz or biospira per direction on gallonage for your new reef. Add in one pinch of very finely ground fish food any brand.

Wait ten days, do a water change fully if possible as this is wastewater

Then begin reefing
The food vs ammonia saves all overdose issues and supplies carbon and meets the delay time of the ammonia line from a cycling chart. The predictability of safely carrying fish by a specific date is the #1 thing I hope we can proof in this thread.

Dr. Reefs entire bottle bac thread findings were based on full water changes which measures only leftover bacteria behind and none cheating as suspended in the water

Doing a bottle bac + feed + 10 days wait then decide on fish disease protocols as you change water and begin is the most updated cycling science I know. I don't believe it can fail because a couple cycling clowns in totally clean water after ten days bac buildup meets already tested timeframes from other threads.

This guy built a whole reef on day one


We're waiting to day ten to add two fish, see why it's actually pretty safe to do testless cycling:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

Lol, what you propose is a “fish in” cycle. I’ve done the crushed flake cycle with a starter culture and it’s taken up to 3 weeks. “Fish in” cycles work to sustain a low load with adequate dilution, and is not new science.

Is the new science just not bothering to test?