How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle
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Sequest
Community Member
Hi,
First tank, first time cycling. But i think either my cycle has failed (to even start) or stalled.
I was following the Dr Tims instructions. Got the tank up to salinity, let water heat to 25C then added the Dr Tims one and only bottle. Then dosed ammonia at the ratio as printed on the bottle (4 drops per gallon).
Left the tank and have been monitoring parameters for the past 2 weeks.
Day 1 saw 2.0ppm ammonia (Using red sea test kit). Basically test kit was maxed out, so probably higher?
PH has never dropped below 8 in this time.
Salinity is stable at 35ppt.
Ammonia has remained at 2ppm since the start. There has been some, but nearly immeasurable traces of Nitrite (using the Salifert test kit), the water does change color, but its so slight it might as well be 0.
Nitrates seem to be somewhere around 1-2mg/L (Nyos test kit).
And thats what my tank has been sitting at for the last 2 weeks.
As part of Dr Tims strategy, a water change was in there. So I did a 40% water change.
This lowered Ammonia down to around 1.2PPM (Red sea test kit again), which was performed 3 days ago. But still no sign of Nitrate/Nitrite, nor falling Ammonia.
I purchased a Salifert Ammonia test kit. It is reading around 0.25mg/l (about 0.25ppm). Stark difference.
Repeated the Salifert ammonia test and same result, 0.25mg/L
Which do i believe?
Maybe I need to go buy a third test kit... try the Seachem Ammonia multi test kit.
Should I interfere yet, or just let the tank continue as is?
Maybe my Dr Tims bottle of bacteria was dead on arrival?
Cheers.
First tank, first time cycling. But i think either my cycle has failed (to even start) or stalled.
I was following the Dr Tims instructions. Got the tank up to salinity, let water heat to 25C then added the Dr Tims one and only bottle. Then dosed ammonia at the ratio as printed on the bottle (4 drops per gallon).
Left the tank and have been monitoring parameters for the past 2 weeks.
Day 1 saw 2.0ppm ammonia (Using red sea test kit). Basically test kit was maxed out, so probably higher?
PH has never dropped below 8 in this time.
Salinity is stable at 35ppt.
Ammonia has remained at 2ppm since the start. There has been some, but nearly immeasurable traces of Nitrite (using the Salifert test kit), the water does change color, but its so slight it might as well be 0.
Nitrates seem to be somewhere around 1-2mg/L (Nyos test kit).
And thats what my tank has been sitting at for the last 2 weeks.
As part of Dr Tims strategy, a water change was in there. So I did a 40% water change.
This lowered Ammonia down to around 1.2PPM (Red sea test kit again), which was performed 3 days ago. But still no sign of Nitrate/Nitrite, nor falling Ammonia.
I purchased a Salifert Ammonia test kit. It is reading around 0.25mg/l (about 0.25ppm). Stark difference.
Repeated the Salifert ammonia test and same result, 0.25mg/L
Which do i believe?
Maybe I need to go buy a third test kit... try the Seachem Ammonia multi test kit.
Should I interfere yet, or just let the tank continue as is?
Maybe my Dr Tims bottle of bacteria was dead on arrival?
Cheers.
OP
OP
Post #1 and 2 in the thread has the info that directly matches your issue. If you have reef rocks sitting in that stew for 2 weeks then you're past day ten which is our actionable date here.
You can simply change all your water for new, then add fish, and you're cycled. The test kits you're using mislead we show, so your cycle isn't stalled it's complete.
The simple rule here and 100% in disagreement with Dr Tim is that after two weeks stewing, any common variation on cycling will complete just fine. It's hard to believe we don't ascribe to Dr's rules here, we don't believe in cycle stalling, and 32 pages of proof is how we arrived at that.
Dead bottle bac doesn't factor unless someone is putting in fish on day one. Given two weeks ramp up time plus the huge feed dose you put in, the tank will cycle even if some of the bac were compromised.
Your observed test levels don't factor in the assessment, only time underwater factors here. Your test kits simply can't reflect accurately on the cycle status. It would take a digital ammonia kit to see where your cycle stands, and without one, we sub in known submersion dates and no readings taken to discern cycle status.
If you do a 100% water change then when refilled the cycling bacteria were stuck to rock surfaces and all the metabolites are changed out with the wastewater exchange
You can simply change all your water for new, then add fish, and you're cycled. The test kits you're using mislead we show, so your cycle isn't stalled it's complete.
The simple rule here and 100% in disagreement with Dr Tim is that after two weeks stewing, any common variation on cycling will complete just fine. It's hard to believe we don't ascribe to Dr's rules here, we don't believe in cycle stalling, and 32 pages of proof is how we arrived at that.
Dead bottle bac doesn't factor unless someone is putting in fish on day one. Given two weeks ramp up time plus the huge feed dose you put in, the tank will cycle even if some of the bac were compromised.
Your observed test levels don't factor in the assessment, only time underwater factors here. Your test kits simply can't reflect accurately on the cycle status. It would take a digital ammonia kit to see where your cycle stands, and without one, we sub in known submersion dates and no readings taken to discern cycle status.
If you do a 100% water change then when refilled the cycling bacteria were stuck to rock surfaces and all the metabolites are changed out with the wastewater exchange
OP
OP
*** I'm aware there are very different takes on what constitutes a failed cycle.
When a non digital test kit says there's a stall the major reefing community accepts that reading as proof needed.
But see our post#2
See how that api test showed 1 ppm stuck, but the seneye showed .04 ppm not stuck? The api read hundreds of times too high a level-a false read.
A failed or stalled cycle cannot carry a fish bioload.
If you put two clowns in a ten gallon tank with a stack of dry rock, no bottle bac, they'll be dead in 2-4 days after feeding commences. That's stuck/ not cycled. We get consequences that no test kit is required to know
Conversely
When 32 pages of atypical cycle readings produces 100% fish carry + feeding every day and no crash, that's cycled. We get a benefit where no testing is needed to experience the benefit
When a non digital test kit says there's a stall the major reefing community accepts that reading as proof needed.
But see our post#2
See how that api test showed 1 ppm stuck, but the seneye showed .04 ppm not stuck? The api read hundreds of times too high a level-a false read.
A failed or stalled cycle cannot carry a fish bioload.
If you put two clowns in a ten gallon tank with a stack of dry rock, no bottle bac, they'll be dead in 2-4 days after feeding commences. That's stuck/ not cycled. We get consequences that no test kit is required to know
Conversely
When 32 pages of atypical cycle readings produces 100% fish carry + feeding every day and no crash, that's cycled. We get a benefit where no testing is needed to experience the benefit
islandstonashville
Community Member
if i followed the old conventional method of when my cycle is finished, i would have been stucked for a while.
Here’s an update of my tank right now. Tanks is pretty much alive and well.
saramachen
Active Member
I have been cycling a biobrick, 6lbs dry rock rubble and 10lbs of dry “purple” rock in 20 gallons. I added a small chunk of 30ppi sponge from my sump, and some bottle bacteria (MB7) and fed it ammonia drops.
Started the process July 21st with the biobrick, rubble & sponge.
Aug 8th added the 10lbs of rock.
Aug 10 I have been adding 1 drop of Aquaforest ProBioS and NP-pro daily.
Aug 10 I added a bottle of pods and I feed 10ml of live phyto daily.
Yesterday (11am) I added 5ml of ammonia which tested a few hours later at 4ppm.
today at 4pm it tested at 0ppm.
So my question is that will this media be enough to support a 90gallon system on day 1 adding the inhabitants of my 25g tank (2 clowns, a Cardinal, a Blenny and a mix of inverts)?
I really don’t want to use any of my old rock (its 8months old started as dry rock) and sand. When setting up the tank I will be adding new sand and 60ish more lbs of dry rock (and can add a bottle of whatever bacteria - if it’s needed).
or should I set up the tank, add a bottle of bac, a pinch of flake food and leave it for 10 days before moving the livestock. I’m expecting to have the tank in a week or so.
Started the process July 21st with the biobrick, rubble & sponge.
Aug 8th added the 10lbs of rock.
Aug 10 I have been adding 1 drop of Aquaforest ProBioS and NP-pro daily.
Aug 10 I added a bottle of pods and I feed 10ml of live phyto daily.
Yesterday (11am) I added 5ml of ammonia which tested a few hours later at 4ppm.
today at 4pm it tested at 0ppm.
So my question is that will this media be enough to support a 90gallon system on day 1 adding the inhabitants of my 25g tank (2 clowns, a Cardinal, a Blenny and a mix of inverts)?
I really don’t want to use any of my old rock (its 8months old started as dry rock) and sand. When setting up the tank I will be adding new sand and 60ish more lbs of dry rock (and can add a bottle of whatever bacteria - if it’s needed).
or should I set up the tank, add a bottle of bac, a pinch of flake food and leave it for 10 days before moving the livestock. I’m expecting to have the tank in a week or so.
OP
OP
Hey thanks for posting, this is a really fitting cycle request because you want to be ready on the date you get your new setup, with no doubt or looking back on the prep process
please post pics of your new setup with fish alive and well after the system combination so we can tie in the preps and the outcome
I am 100% certain your prepped rocks and media are ready and will carry that light intended bioload just fine, within the new system which adds much more dilution to the mix anyway. You aren’t really adding extra bioload at the start of the new setup so this will be an easy transition setup. Sixteen pounds of cycled rock and rubble will carry your bioload, it’s important to have the media in the display up top vs packed into a sump down below…wastewater builds in the display uncontacted and has to wait to be sent down the drain to get contacted in the sump in that setup. It’s better to have your media in the display for immediate contact from the waste produced by fish and their daily feed.
Im not factoring your bio brick it’s mere extra ready surface area and doesn’t matter where you put it bc it doesn’t assist you much with aerobic oxidation of waste- if the biobrick isn’t rounded or shaped to fit inside a delivery pipe output then there’s not enough water flowing through it to be of any use. Sitting out in the open with no directed pipe pressure, water simply strikes the edges and sides of the brick and flows around the path of least resistance.
the micro channels in the brick are tight and require directed force to pressure water through it for any usefulness as an ammonia filter.
the gimmick on those is for denitrification…ignoring the principle of pressure and throughput above the sellers claim mere placement in the water system will scrub nitrate out of the tank, which isn’t a help for you here even if they do work for that goal.
you may add new uncycled rocks to the ready rocks in the display and that doesn’t limit your cycle because the ready portion is sufficient regardless of any inert media or rock added to build up the scape. no bottle bac is needed for this job, sixteen pounds of verified ready rock and rubble would carry more bioload than you have now. Only if the ready media had to be packed down in a sump would I use extra bottle bac dose at the start to handle surface prep up top.
in your plan, new tank uglies will be your challenge, that’s a lot of dry rock coming that will suck up phosphate / or emit some/ hard to predict on that part but cycling will not factor in your setup and plan as stated. Can’t wait to see the outcome!
B
please post pics of your new setup with fish alive and well after the system combination so we can tie in the preps and the outcome
I am 100% certain your prepped rocks and media are ready and will carry that light intended bioload just fine, within the new system which adds much more dilution to the mix anyway. You aren’t really adding extra bioload at the start of the new setup so this will be an easy transition setup. Sixteen pounds of cycled rock and rubble will carry your bioload, it’s important to have the media in the display up top vs packed into a sump down below…wastewater builds in the display uncontacted and has to wait to be sent down the drain to get contacted in the sump in that setup. It’s better to have your media in the display for immediate contact from the waste produced by fish and their daily feed.
Im not factoring your bio brick it’s mere extra ready surface area and doesn’t matter where you put it bc it doesn’t assist you much with aerobic oxidation of waste- if the biobrick isn’t rounded or shaped to fit inside a delivery pipe output then there’s not enough water flowing through it to be of any use. Sitting out in the open with no directed pipe pressure, water simply strikes the edges and sides of the brick and flows around the path of least resistance.
the micro channels in the brick are tight and require directed force to pressure water through it for any usefulness as an ammonia filter.
the gimmick on those is for denitrification…ignoring the principle of pressure and throughput above the sellers claim mere placement in the water system will scrub nitrate out of the tank, which isn’t a help for you here even if they do work for that goal.
you may add new uncycled rocks to the ready rocks in the display and that doesn’t limit your cycle because the ready portion is sufficient regardless of any inert media or rock added to build up the scape. no bottle bac is needed for this job, sixteen pounds of verified ready rock and rubble would carry more bioload than you have now. Only if the ready media had to be packed down in a sump would I use extra bottle bac dose at the start to handle surface prep up top.
in your plan, new tank uglies will be your challenge, that’s a lot of dry rock coming that will suck up phosphate / or emit some/ hard to predict on that part but cycling will not factor in your setup and plan as stated. Can’t wait to see the outcome!
B
saramachen
Active Member
Thank you!
So any point in moving the biobrick over? Could it be housing pods I have added? It takes up too valuable space if it’s not doing me any good.
i will take a chunk of Rock from my current tank, even tho it started as dry rock, and house it in the new display for a while, or figure out how to work it in permanently without being an eyesore. Although when the uglies hit, it will all be an eyesore so maybe that doesn’t matter
current tank this morning (8m old)
I will keep tracking my process and update when the tank is up and running hopefully in a week or so.
Thanks again
OP
OP
agreed the brick isn't a help at all, any pods it holds are also in the rock about to be moved plus they'll hitch in best if you just buy a bag of pods from algaebarn and add to the new tank, independent to the cycle planning. bricks are never harmful but I wouldnt own them in reefing, because nitrate control is all they do/claimed/I haven't measured them to know/ and I dont really like to drive down nitrate in my setups I let it run as it will, I dont care what nitrate is in reefing
(it's an important param, reason why I dont have to monitor: I feed exceptionally well, my sys is not nitrogen limited at all and I don't mind if the levels get elevated, algae isn't permitted in my system regardless of params, I don't measure for it and I wouldnt even in a large reef)
calcium and alk via digital testers is what I'd be testing in a large reef, pH too so I can assess home gas in/out balances. if I had a huge tank with a terrible persistent algae prob I could see caring about p04 enough to tinker with it, but not nitrate, I don't care what it reads in any setting
(it's an important param, reason why I dont have to monitor: I feed exceptionally well, my sys is not nitrogen limited at all and I don't mind if the levels get elevated, algae isn't permitted in my system regardless of params, I don't measure for it and I wouldnt even in a large reef)
calcium and alk via digital testers is what I'd be testing in a large reef, pH too so I can assess home gas in/out balances. if I had a huge tank with a terrible persistent algae prob I could see caring about p04 enough to tinker with it, but not nitrate, I don't care what it reads in any setting
OP
OP
The new Hanna digital nh3 checker is testing really, really really bad in 4 posts lately.
we are getting 2.5 ppm reported in a cycled reef, and then .19 was just tested in Mr Saltwater reef's huge perfect tank which runs at .001-.006 ppm nh3 on seneye.
There's no way the bottom end on the Hanna checker is right, I deem is useless in my opinion, based on wild variance in numbers we know seneye reports as very tight range, across tens of thousands of tank logs on file for reading.
we are getting 2.5 ppm reported in a cycled reef, and then .19 was just tested in Mr Saltwater reef's huge perfect tank which runs at .001-.006 ppm nh3 on seneye.
There's no way the bottom end on the Hanna checker is right, I deem is useless in my opinion, based on wild variance in numbers we know seneye reports as very tight range, across tens of thousands of tank logs on file for reading.
OP
OP
*update, Garf posted the instructions to the kit. the meter seems pretty accurate now that I can see we must convert the readings to be reef-specific. Saltwater systems only care about nh3 form ammonia, that meter reads as total ammonia nh4 just like api and red sea ammonia kits.
it reads as nh4 just like api, then we convert it off the charts and off ph ESTIMATES (few on any reefkeeping site are measuring pH 100% accurate, it's still an estimate portion of the conversion math)
if Mr Saltwater's reef was 79 degrees and 8.0 ph his .19 reading on that meter is about .01 ppm nh3
and if he's at 79 degrees and 7.8 ph it's .007 ppm nh3 which is now .001 units away from matching the upper end of what a seneye would read, nicely done for $59 meter vs $180.
readings must be converted by estimate.
reef bowl method in depth, setup and variation
it reads as nh4 just like api, then we convert it off the charts and off ph ESTIMATES (few on any reefkeeping site are measuring pH 100% accurate, it's still an estimate portion of the conversion math)
if Mr Saltwater's reef was 79 degrees and 8.0 ph his .19 reading on that meter is about .01 ppm nh3
and if he's at 79 degrees and 7.8 ph it's .007 ppm nh3 which is now .001 units away from matching the upper end of what a seneye would read, nicely done for $59 meter vs $180.
readings must be converted by estimate.
reef bowl method in depth, setup and variation
OP
OP
I rate the top chemists on this site as Randy, Dan P and Taricha
If they're doing an experiment about ammonia in a reef tank, we want to glue our eyes to their study
I'm watching this and taking notes. Taricha is exactly who I'd enjoy seeing reviewing the new hanna ammonia meter in lab mode. Serious study and results aren't in yet, sub in here.
www.reef2reef.com
If they're doing an experiment about ammonia in a reef tank, we want to glue our eyes to their study
I'm watching this and taking notes. Taricha is exactly who I'd enjoy seeing reviewing the new hanna ammonia meter in lab mode. Serious study and results aren't in yet, sub in here.
Analyzing Hanna Ammonia checker Hi784, chemistry and performance
Hanna's saltwater ammonia checker, Hi784 is out and I wanted to take a look and assess its performance for reef tank water, and see where some interpretation of results might be helpful. This post will include some data on a display tank processing ammonia, and in a later post I'll do a...
www.reef2reef.com
OP
OP
Team if you aren't watching this thread in the chemistry forum you're missing out on the best false stall post of 2022
Everything we cover on post #1 here in our huge positive outcome thread is in full refute here, watch this conflict unfold, a duel not between forum posters
It's a duel between old cycling science and new. It's refusing to consider fish disease, getting diseased, and blaming the cycle~
www.reef2reef.com
I truly thought the chemistry forum was the last place folks would be debating what ammonia does in a reef tank, Randy already wrote about what it does.
Everything we cover on post #1 here in our huge positive outcome thread is in full refute here, watch this conflict unfold, a duel not between forum posters
It's a duel between old cycling science and new. It's refusing to consider fish disease, getting diseased, and blaming the cycle~
Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!
Thank you I wanted something different besides coral, there are so many types of good algae that quite beautiful. Plus they absorb lots of other things as a benefit There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, you've saved yourself some time. You could add the QT and make it a refugium later.
www.reef2reef.com
I truly thought the chemistry forum was the last place folks would be debating what ammonia does in a reef tank, Randy already wrote about what it does.
OP
OP
From the thread above, the before and after pics of the ammonia event posted by bstone
we dont use test kits in this thread, because someone has to study testless cycling and it takes a thread where no test kits are used to guide cycles in order to study what testless cycles can accomplish. He’s reporting loss of two fish, delayed to month nine in the setup with no disease controls in place. For pages we have been remarking here that outbreaks around month eight are a standout pattern in cycle threads, and that hyperfocus on ammonia led by non digital test kits will prevent folks from having standard disease control discussions.
in our thread here, we use pics as the proof of a crashing tank we think they’ll look very very bad as far as reef tank pics go.
at the height of the ammonia event, non digital test kits pegged to maximum level indication, crash impending:
and at the resolution, when the non digital test kits said it was safe to proceed:
are the fish behaving markedly different in the two pics
any water quality differences noted in the two pics, clouding?
that delicate starfish endured days at 8 ppm nh4, is that right
we dont use test kits in this thread, because someone has to study testless cycling and it takes a thread where no test kits are used to guide cycles in order to study what testless cycles can accomplish. He’s reporting loss of two fish, delayed to month nine in the setup with no disease controls in place. For pages we have been remarking here that outbreaks around month eight are a standout pattern in cycle threads, and that hyperfocus on ammonia led by non digital test kits will prevent folks from having standard disease control discussions.
in our thread here, we use pics as the proof of a crashing tank we think they’ll look very very bad as far as reef tank pics go.
at the height of the ammonia event, non digital test kits pegged to maximum level indication, crash impending:
and at the resolution, when the non digital test kits said it was safe to proceed:
are the fish behaving markedly different in the two pics
any water quality differences noted in the two pics, clouding?
that delicate starfish endured days at 8 ppm nh4, is that right
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OP
OP
Can't Keep Ammonia Down!
Hello again! Sorry for such a basic and dumb question.. I'm just at a complete loss. I swear I thought I've done everything right, yet I just don't know why my Ammonia won't drop to 0. Here are my parameters... I've been having issues keeping Alk and Magnesium lower as well. It must be the salt...
www.reef2reef.com
we will study this ammonia control/buys bottle bac on repeat example
watch for the full tank pictures. if the alert badge supports free ammonia here, nobody will question any aspect of the cycle, digital measures won't be required, everyone will just agree in unison again a cycle has broken in a fully running months old tank
OP
OP
you can't have ammonia issues at month 2 or you would have never got to month 2 with fish and corals
here's another 3 month old tank as a broken cycle study, in the chem forum
fish disease is the standout detail we cover
www.reef2reef.com
here's another 3 month old tank as a broken cycle study, in the chem forum
fish disease is the standout detail we cover
Ammonia
setup Biocube 32 gallon So what does this ammonia look like to y’all? Okay let me fist start by saying I’ve had an apparent ammonia spike, what brought this to my attention was a damsel acting really weird laying around breathing rapidly and my scooter bleeny the same but they was only 2...
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OP
OP
Established Tank Ammonia,Nitrite Refuse to drop even after water changes,Please help if you have the time
Okay, I posted a thread about this very same problem or at least similar to it. Before I begin here is a quick background on my knowledge, My 1st freshwater tank I started around 12-13 with live-bearers, I moved to saltwater around 15 years of age I am 37 now. So my point is I usually can figure...
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This poster is absolutely hating reefing using old cycling science
that tank is a prior study from above, we detailed it, this is a new/rebuttal post claiming the cycle is still broken.
**here is his post from two weeks ago:
Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!
Thank you I wanted something different besides coral, there are so many types of good algae that quite beautiful. Plus they absorb lots of other things as a benefit There's nothing wrong with this. In fact, you've saved yourself some time. You could add the QT and make it a refugium later.
www.reef2reef.com
*do you see how his tank is totally normal this entire time, and nobody discusses fish disease from taking zero preps in mixing a bunch of pet store fish?
OP
OP
Why wont my tank cycle
I’ve tank my reef about a year now im always have ammonia problems my tank keeps back cycling i dont know why can anyone explain…..the tanks been running for 2 months now with no fish ammonia still high….I've lost so much $☹️ help plzzzz
www.reef2reef.com
Using visual benthic cueing, in a year old tank with several biomarkers for cycling, to coach cycle umps on feedback habits. Updated cycling science is not just going to fade out, we did not luck into 33 pages of tamed cycles only to have 2003 habits creep back in. You cannot have a reef tank that grew coralline all over rocks and walls, plus algae all over everything, stated as a year old with a huge normal stack of rocks in the middle of the tank and no fish, no feed, no source for ammonia control be validated as a broken cycle reef tank because api said so.
the umps were not immediately assuring him that no reef tank in that condition can have a broken cycle; that should have been first post.
if anyone reading this thread for all 33 pages up till now wants to ask "but maybe his bacteria starved, he has not fed for two months" then you must not have read all 33 pages, there are no failed cycles in reefing. there are no stalled cycles in reefing or starved ones, there are only people with non digital test kits where stalled cycle posts go.
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