How to Quarantine

4FordFamily · Mar 22, 2016

Volpone said:
I.believe the reagent its showing so dark color and way different for 0.5

View attachment 331103

Yeah that's pretty dark but because of cupramine ineffectiveness that's almost as dark as my tests yielded

melypr1985 · Mar 22, 2016

FireEMT said:
I am going to be buying 3 tangs (yellow eyed cole, yellow tang, and purple tang), they are all around 2-3". I would like to do TTM like I've done in the past but I only have two 10g QT's. Will the 10g tanks be ok of 3 tangs and possible a orange diamond gobbie? I would have a separate piece of pipe for each but worry about the size. Any help would be appreciated. If I have to split them into the two tanks I would have to do copper which I like the idea of TTM better.

I worry about the size as well with three tangs together. You could get plastic totes to use instead as a cheap, but larger alternative.

Humblefish · Mar 22, 2016

melypr1985 said:
I worry about the size as well with three tangs together. You could get plastic totes to use instead as a cheap, but larger alternative.

+1 I don't think I'd put 3 tangs in just a 10 gal QT for two reasons: 1) Tangs are pooping machines = ammonia 2) 3 tangs is such a confined space are likely to fight.

Personally, I'd be more comfortable doing it in a 20 gal or similar sized sterilite container. Like this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterilite-18-Gallon-Tote-Box-Clear-8pk/44785785

Or this: http://www.target.com/p/sterilite-20-gallon-latching-tote-grey/-/A-46785155

Puffy_Sanchez · Mar 22, 2016

Going through my first TTM and I know you are suppose to match the temperature. How close is close? I'm within a degree or so. Using the same heater in both tanks at the same setting. Obviously there are other factors included he accuracy of the thermometer. I am thinking one degree can't hurt much.

drstratton · Mar 22, 2016

Puffy_Sanchez said:
Going through my first TTM and I know you are suppose to match the temperature. How close is close? I'm within a degree or so. Using the same heater in both tanks at the same setting. Obviously there are other factors included he accuracy of the thermometer. I am thinking one degree can't hurt much.

I always try to get it spot on, but have had to make the transfer when it wasn't. Based on my experiences, you should be fine!

Puffy_Sanchez · Mar 22, 2016

drstratton said:
I always try to get it spot on, but have had to make the transfer when it wasn't. Based on my experiences, you should be fine!

Yeah I tested the accuracy of thermometers I bought 3 used several others I had on hand and my two apex probes. All were within a degree and half of each other so it was hard to say which ones were correct.

drstratton · Mar 22, 2016

Puffy_Sanchez said:
Yeah I tested the accuracy of thermometers I bought 3 used several others I had on hand and my two apex probes. All were within a degree and half of each other so it was hard to say which ones were correct.

I also use identical adjustable heaters and I use a Thermoworks thermometer. I can usually get them at the same temp with a small amount of adjusting, but once in a while when it's time to transfer they are not exact and it's either move the fish or start TTM over, as long as it's not several degree's you should be good to go, but @Humblefish will correct me if I'm wrong!

Humblefish · Mar 22, 2016

Puffy_Sanchez said:
Yeah I tested the accuracy of thermometers I bought 3 used several others I had on hand and my two apex probes. All were within a degree and half of each other so it was hard to say which ones were correct.

1-2 degree fluctuation is fine. I use a digital meat thermometer for a more accurate reading. Just clean it good afterwards and don't let your wife see you using it.

drstratton · Mar 22, 2016

Humblefish said:
1-2 degree fluctuation is fine. I use a digital meat thermometer for a more accurate reading. Just clean it good afterwards and don't let your wife see you using it.

Lol, that's what mine is, but I'm the wife so I don't have to worry about it!

VJV · Mar 22, 2016

Is that the reference sample? In my case the reference sample always looks more like 0,7 than 0,5... Everything about the Seachem copper test kit is inaccurate/impossible to read. That is why I rely mostly on my dosing in terms of drops per liter. I do check with the test to confirm it is in the ballpark range but that is it.

VJV · Mar 22, 2016

Humblefish said:
@VJV I hear ya. Hypo could be an option in your situation, but if velvet or brook ever reared its ugly head while you were away you would probably come back to a QT full of dead fish.

Due to the "stress" of being in QT (no rocks/substrate), visible symptoms of ich will usually manifest in 1 months time. That is actually a "pro" of bare bottom/rockless QT - to draw out any diseases the fish may have before entering the DT. However, I cannot say with certainty that this will happen 100% of the time.

As a follow up, after loosing the two tangs I still had a pair of clownfish and a lawnmower blenny in the QT. I decided to continue with the Cupramine treatment and increased the concentration to about 0,37.

This was two weeks ago and all fish are alive and well. They continue to eat and look generally healthy.

I am really puzzled by the kill rate on the tangs...

Humblefish · Mar 22, 2016

VJV said:
I am really puzzled by the kill rate on the tangs...

It's strange to me as well, as IME tangs are generally not copper sensitive. However, tangs are more susceptible to disease than a clownfish/blenny. Which do you begin first? Copper or prazi treatment?

VJV · Mar 22, 2016

Until now I have always started with praziquantel. It is true that since the tangs died the Amonia levels dropped from 0,005ppm to 0,001ppm. It should not make a difference given 0,005 is still half that of the lowest level recorded by the Seachem Amonia alert strip 0,01ppm.

I am sure that there are a lot of people using cupramine with tangs with higher levels of ammonia that have no issues so I do not believe this is the cause.

Volpone · Mar 23, 2016

Here is seachem reply regarding the instructions of dose .

((We have changed the instructions to the following:

Use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 US gallons)

The newest instructions are posted on the website. When we changed our bottles, we were forced to change the instructions to accurately measure the Cupramine, however, the older instructions are still in circulation. I'm sorry for the confusion, but if you will dose according to the new instructions, you should hit your target final concentration of 0.5mg/L.))

VJV · Mar 23, 2016

I am amazed... I really liked Seachem but how can they make such gross mistakes with the instructions of a product that may potentially kill your fish??? I mean, the 16 drops have been around for ages and now all of a sudden they discover they were off by no less than 25%...???

I believe I'm done with Seachem.

Humblefish · Mar 23, 2016

You guys seriously can't get any chelated copper products, like Coppersafe or Copper Power over there??

VJV · Mar 23, 2016

Never seen those in any store. In fact, even in online stores in Europe I have not seen copper based medicines for fish. I wonder how most people deal with ich over this side. I know that the vast majority I have spoken to like the "get your fish fat and healthy so that their immune system can fight it off" approach. I honestly do not know how can this approach be popular. With up to 200 spores emerging from each cyst in an enclosed system such as our tanks I am really surprised that they still have fish...

But no, never saw copper safe or other copper based medicines.

Humblefish · Mar 23, 2016

@VJV Since I might be coming over there soon, I'm gonna get to the bottom of this.

I'll report back once I've found a solution.

VJV · Mar 24, 2016

Humblefish said:
@VJV Since I might be coming over there soon, I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. I'll report back once I've found a solution.

Good to have you over this side of the pond [emoji4]. On another note, have found a product called Cuprazin from a UK company called Waterlife. Did not manage to find much info on it though... Is it Chelated? Ionic?... Have you ever used it? They recommend to keep between 0,25 and 0,3 concentration of copper for 10 days (it seems rather a short period for me).

Humblefish · Mar 24, 2016

@VJV Apparently I did a little research for someone else regarding Cuprazin a while back (see below):

Humblefish said:
I can't find a MSDS, so I'm relying upon what I've read in a couple of threads about Cuprazin. Ingredients are Copper sulfate, Formaldehyde and Malachite green. The only one of those three that is useful for treating marine ich is Copper sulfate, and that is comparable to what is in chelated copper (i.e. Coppersafe here in the states.) Therefore, the therapeutic range would be 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm for 30 days, and you would need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Cuprazin.

However, I strongly advise against leaving a fish in formaldehyde (harsh chemical that is also a known carcinogen) for 30 days. Therefore, I advise you to run carbon/do WCs to remove all the Cuprazin from the water and use this instead: Seachem Cupramine Copper Aquarium medication - 250ml: Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

I also suggest picking up one of these so you can properly test the concentration of Cupramine periodically: http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/seachem-multitest-copper-test-kit-p-1373.html
You probably know better places/websites in the UK to order these products from.