I'm not adding any copper yet I will be doing water change before I do thanks for the heads up. I have prime in the water now about to add the sponge with stability on it.
How to Quarantine
- Thread starter Humblefish
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I am getting close to purchasing my first fish and I thought I had the QT all figured out until I read about brooklynella. I was going to use Cupramine and Prazipro but now I read clowns are very susceptible to brook and you can only treat with a formalin style med like Paragaurd. I also heard from Vivid Aquariums that you can treat Prazipro and Cupramine together or at the same time.
So my questions are;
Should I treat all clowns with ParaGaurd?
Can you treat with Prazipro and Cupramine together, seems like it would save time?
and
How did you ask your vet for the scrip for CP since it seems to be the best of both since it will treat for Ich, Velvet and Brooklynealla?
So my questions are;
Should I treat all clowns with ParaGaurd?
Can you treat with Prazipro and Cupramine together, seems like it would save time?
and
How did you ask your vet for the scrip for CP since it seems to be the best of both since it will treat for Ich, Velvet and Brooklynealla?
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You can do prazi and cupramine together.... the copper tends to make the prazi less effective though. I would treat for ich/velvet/flukes right off the bat and observe for another two weeks or so to see if brook shows up. Though Brook would already have shown up by then I believe- in which case you'd treat for that instead.
FWIW; I'm not sold on Paraguard as a "cure" for anything. Seachem is very ambiguous about what their product contains. A better alternative for brook is "Ruby Reef Rally", which contains acriflavine, a chemical proven to eradicate brook and even provide temporary relief for marine velvet disease.
This is an even better product (straight acriflavine), but you'll probably need to order it online: http://www.fishvet.com/Acriflavine-MS.htm
This is an even better product (straight acriflavine), but you'll probably need to order it online: http://www.fishvet.com/Acriflavine-MS.htm
How would you treat for Brook, would you do baths or treat in a QT? Should I treat all clowns or should I just do the copper and prazipro and hope for no Brook?
How did you obtain your CP, did you just explain to your Vet that you need it for fish?
Is the copper and Prazi ok to treat together, why is it less effective or is it just a oxygen depletion thing?
Thanks for all the info.
My guess and only a guess based on name and claims from seachem is they mostly use paraformaldehyde, which is just a polymer of formaldehyde that will in solution form many small polymers and some free formaldehyde, however their claim of methanol free is strange as this is used to keep it from oxidizing into plain old formaldehyde. Maybe as they only use about 10% "aldehyde" so may not require the same amount of stabilization as a typical 37% solution. In any event assuming there is enough aldehyde they all pretty much work they same by cross linking molecules together. We use paraformaldehyde in my work to fix biological samples to prepare them for biochemical assays. It is preferred as it tends to be more gentle on the sample as formaldehyde reacts very rapidly and tends to "over fix" the samples. My guess is they are using some form of of this. Question is do they have an appropriate working concentration to kill all the parasite.
I just called my Vet and explained what it was for and they stated that they can write scrips for animals that they can't see. So no luck there. They said that I could call around to LFS and see if they know of anyone that could supply it but the only LFS that knows about it and uses it gets it from eBay. They said they are thinking about carrying it in the store but who knows where it comes from. They also said that when they treat with it, it is not a one time and done treatment. They said they have to treat a couple times which tells me that maybe its not 100% pure. According to Humblefish it should be a one time treatment. Do I have any other options because I would really like to try it?
I personally prefer a 1 hr bath, and a LFS I advise has had great success clearing clownfish of brook after just one bath treatment using acriflavine. You can also dose acriflavine directly into the QT afterwards (at 1/2 dosage) to ensure brook does not return. The only downside to using acriflavine is it cannot be mixed with other chemicals like copper, praziquantel, antibiotics, etc.
My situation is a bit unique; however showing a vet these articles will sometimes convince them to write a prescription for CP:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish
http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=41
You have to understand CP is an FDA controlled substance, even though there's no logical reason for it to be (it isn't regulated in Europe or Canada.) But it still gives a vet pause whenever writing a script for a govt. controlled substance.
Yes, however the presence of copper reduces praziquantel's overall effectiveness. I'd have to do some digging to find the exact study, but I believe the contradiction was that copper reduces the bioavailability of praziquantel (in rats and humans). So it's a safe assumption the same happens with fish when both chemicals are dosed into the water together.
See, I don't trust any product where the company is not straightforward about the ingredients it contains. Having that information allows me to research the ingredients one by one to see what they've been proven to do and what the known side effects are (there are always side effects.) To me, "aldehydes" is nothing more than organic fluff.
I personally prefer a 1 hr bath, and a LFS I advise has had great success clearing clownfish of brook after just one bath treatment using acriflavine. You can also dose acriflavine directly into the QT afterwards (at 1/2 dosage) to ensure brook does not return. The only downside to using acriflavine is it cannot be mixed with other chemicals like copper, praziquantel, antibiotics, etc.
My situation is a bit unique; however showing a vet these articles will sometimes convince them to write a prescription for CP:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish
http://www.saltcorner.com/Articles/Showarticle.php?articleID=41
You have to understand CP is an FDA controlled substance, even though there's no logical reason for it to be (it isn't regulated in Europe or Canada.) But it still gives a vet pause whenever writing a script for a govt. controlled substance.
Yes, however the presence of copper reduces praziquantel's overall effectiveness. I'd have to do some digging to find the exact study, but I believe the contradiction was that copper reduces the bioavailability of praziquantel (in rats and humans). So it's a safe assumption the same happens with fish when both chemicals are dosed into the water together.
Great thanks for all the info, I think I might be out of luck right now with the CP but maybe the Acriflavine will take care of my concerns. So with that being said should I treat clowns with Acriflavine first via a bath and then treat with copper and prazi after that in the QT. Should I even be that concerned with Brook or should I just wait until Brook shows itself.
Thanks again for all the info, you are more than helpful.
Being brook seems to be running rampant right now, I would probably give any new clownfish an acriflavine bath while drip acclimating them into QT. And then just observe for symptoms after that.
Thanks, I will try doing that. Is the dose for the bath the same as daily treatment, 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water? If I just make the water the same salinity as the LFS do I need to drip acclimate. I guess I don't get the method you are talking about. Do I just add the Acriflavine-MS to the water that the fish is bagged in. Sorry for all the questions, I'm a total newbie.
For Acriflavine-MS, the dosage is 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons when doing the bath. But only 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons when used in a QT (continuous exposure).
So long as SG/temp match, you can add a fish directly to your QT (or DT) without any acclimation procedure. More about that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-acclimate.192300/
For your purposes, I would take some water from the QT, put it in a bucket and treat with acriflavine in there (1 teaspoon per 5 gallons) for 1 hour before placing the fish in QT. Since bucket/QT water parameters will match perfectly, you can just scoop the fish out and put in QT when the bath is done. Make sure to aerate heavily and also temperature control (with a heater) the bucket water during the bath.
Ok so I have pulled my fish out of DT and placed them in QT for the last few months, I have 30 days left of going fallow before I can put them back in. Since then they have been doing great, no problems or sights of ich. I just dosed the QT with cupermine for the last few days and I have reached levels at 0.35-0.4 my question is do I have to dose them for the full 30'days or is 14 days sufficient being there isn't any signs of ich? Second question is why does the bottle suggest dosing cupermine again after 48 hours? Does it lose therapeutic levels after a few days or as long as I do not change water my levels will stay stable?
It is a half dose and then you add the other half 48 hours later to gradually bring it up to the correct dosage to make it easier on the fish. Test often with the seachem copper test.
+1 When using Cupramine, it's best to treat for 30 consecutive days at therapeutic levels (0.35 - 0.5 ppm). Since it's very difficult to read 0.35 on a hobbyist grade copper test kit, just shoot for 0.5 and hold the line there for 30 days. This gives you a little wiggle room just in case the Cu level drops slightly.
Only product of theirs I have found useful is Ruby Reef Rally. It contains acriflavine, so it is useful in a bath solution to treat velvet/brook in lieu of using formalin.
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