How much is the fish store accountable if they sell me a fish and I don't quarantine?

[Lost in the Sauce]

I am not calling for any regulation. Especially not by any type of "governemt" entity. That would never work.

1000 in agreement.

What I am saying is that we as hobbyists can tell these stores it is not okay to sell us sick livestock and expect us to nurse them back to health. If that is the case, they better be the lowest prices available with clear notice that nothing is being done to prevent illness. I think that is poor stewardship but some may be okay with it and that is up to each individual to decide.

We collectively already have done this. There are multiple larger quarantine for hire shops. An ever-growing group of garage quarantine endeavors seeking qt fish.

Consumers showed a desire for fish that were guaranteed healthy. Those are available now. They are also not making money hand over fist. I know of two in the LA area that have completely stopped offering quarantine service, at a flat $50 fee, because it wasn't worth it anymore.

The original option still exists because a Tang SHOULDN'T cost a grand.

We have everything available from fresh out the bag. Importers, to full QT. White glove service.

I don't think my preference of service level, should dictate the entire industries preference.

 

[judecadenreef]

Both are at fault IMO. As a hobby, we need to stop giving stores a pass for selling unhealthy livestock. They KNOW and we KNOW that every fish is going through hell to get to us and is hit with every parasite and disease out there. A store not willing to QT should go out of business.

Can you imagine going to buy a puppy and it is secretly sick but “looks in good health” so you purchase it to only it have it kill your other 10 dogs? We’d never accept that but we do with fish all the time.

I won’t shop at any of my LFS because none of them condition or QT their stuff. Some say they do but one look around shows that is a lie. I now buy all my fish from Dr Reef and have them conditioned. Everything has been amazing so far and my success level has skyrocketed.

Huh...I have been out of the hobby for a bit and hadn't heard of Dr. Reef's. I'm impressed, thanks for sharing!

 

[spsick]

@rtparty and others are making good points about ethical responsibility and stewardship here. There current status quo is HORRIBLE for the survival rate of fish. I bet 70% are dead from the time of capture to a getting comfortable in their aquarists tanks. The argument that it’s not affordable or realistic for LFS to properly care for or treat fish is a pretty crummy one. It is that way because we accept it because we as a society demand everything for as cheap as possible (which I guess dictates that things won’t change).

I would love it if fish were better cared for through the chain of custody, more expensive and less disposable.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

@rtparty and others are making good points about ethical responsibility and stewardship here. There current status quo is HORRIBLE for the survival rate of fish. I bet 70% are dead from the time of capture to a getting comfortable in their aquarists tanks. The argument that it’s not affordable or realistic for LFS to properly care for or treat fish is a pretty crummy one. It is that way because we accept it because we as a society demand everything for as cheap as possible (which I guess dictates that things won’t change).

I would love it if fish were better cared for through the chain of custody, more expensive and less disposable.

Do you believe more fish die in the time between capture in the ocean and getting to your LFS, OR while sitting at your LFS, to you?

Giving a complete lack of evidence here, I would essentially guarantee more fish die from the time of capture to being delivered to the LFS, then die at the LFS into our tanks.

So far, the discussion has been all about once it's delivered to the LFS. What if that's only 10-20 of the overall loss?

The responsible care and husbandry, Once on deck is one thing in my opinion. I believe that MANY times more fish die from capture, to delivery which has Nothing to do with how LFS care for, and prep fish for final resale.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No insult taken. I was a dummy, (or just lazy, probably that) to not quarantine after the first event.

It happens and a QT tank can be as simple as a starter tank kit from walmart which has the essential to get started. In this hobby, always assume fish has something foreign and quarantine(qt)
Some good meds to keep on hand are:
Coppersafe or copper power - ich and velvet
PraziPro - flukes and worms
Hanna coper test kit
Ruby Rally Pro - flukes, uronema, bacteria, velvet and others
Formalin/formalin based for uronema and brooklynella and even ich

 

[amcclow]

Agreed. It is a bit odd to me that the community accepts that stores are not accountable for selling something that can kill your entire tank unless you as the consumer take additional protection action. Your dog example is a good one.

 

[amcclow]

It happens and a QT tank can be as simple as a starter tank kit from walmart which has the essential to get started. In this hobby, always assume fish has something foreign and quarantine(qt)
Some good meds to keep on hand are:
Coppersafe or copper power - ich and velvet
PraziPro - flukes and worms
Hanna coper test kit
Ruby Rally Pro - flukes, uronema, bacteria, velvet and others
Formalin/formalin based for uronema and brooklynella and even ich

Thank you for the guidance. I appreciate it!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you for the guidance. I appreciate it!

Always ask if unsure- there would be no R2R without questions and answers. Lots of experience on here

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Having a better product for the consumer can be done. Not by regulations, because people will buy people off especially in poor economic conditions. But by having incentives to make more money with their product. But yes, it starts with the educated consumer in both the ability to achieve proper animal husbandry and knowing where their product comes from.
I believe if LFS's used an observation period it will not add to their bottom line costs in general. Think about it. A fish store runs 24/7 365. If you create a observational period of 2 weeks of new arrivals and you get an order every one to 2 weeks you would in theory only have a 2 week delay. But in reality it is not like they don't already have fish that haven’t been there for two weeks. People can also put a credit refundable deposit on a fish that they want. If the fish dies or gets sick, they can use the money for another fish so the money stays in house.
The LFS should demand that the distributor sells them viable fish or they get credited that amount.
The distribution center will make efforts to ensure they sell the LFS fish that have been in some sort of observation/feeding so that the LFS will receive a viable product.
The next step is getting the collectors/shippers to get the distributor the best product they can. This is a little more tricky because it usually happens in an economically repressed area. There is an article that I will link, it is pre-pano but still very relevant. One solution that was purposed, was that of a "organic" style labeling that would alert the consumer or LFS that they are getting a cyanide/chemical free fish. That labeling would demand a higher price and the fisherman would make more money per fish for his Family. Also the distributor could get more involved with the intake and shipping.

Soon, You Could Be Able to Tell if Your Aquarium Fish Was Caught With Cyanide

A new handheld detector aims to root out this widespread, destructive practice

www.smithsonianmag.com

These are just ideas and yes I am sure people can spot loop holes and problems in all of them. I just didn’t solve world hunger. But they are ideas that can be honed and modified into a system that works better than what we have.
The world is going green and conservation is part of that. Some people believe there are "Lots of fish in the sea". Whether that is about a failed relationship or actual fish. But some believe there are not whether that is true or not. The Hawaiian ban was created from public opinion not fact. We need to change the public opinion before they even have an opinion. The Lacey Act started to have more eyes on this industry as it is. In California we have more laws based on opinion and not facts and it is getting worse every day. But if you do not live here that doesn’t make you immune, it just hasn’t got to you yet.

 

[amcclow]

Always ask if unsure- there would be no R2R without questions and answers. Lots of experience on here

Will do. Thank you. Pretty passionate discussion on this topic.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I believe if LFS's used an observation period it will not add to their bottom line costs in general. Think about it. A fish store runs 24/7 365. If you create a observational period of 2 weeks of new arrivals and you get an order every one to 2 weeks you would in theory only have a 2 week delay.

This does not make sense if you think about it.

If your LFS brings in an order every 2 weeks which need to be housed for 2 weeks, separate from general population or (quarantined) then your LFS is paying for the water, salt, heat, lighting, as well as having to double the footprint of "for sale" fish until they are moved, for sale, correct?

How CAN that possibly not impact the bottom line?

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I believe that MANY times more fish die from capture, to delivery which has Nothing to do with how LFS care for, and prep fish for final resale.

I am in 100% agreement with that. That is where the change has to happen but thats not where it will have to start.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Having a better product for the consumer can be done. Not by regulations, because people will buy people off especially in poor economic conditions. But by having incentives to make more money with their product. But yes, it starts with the educated consumer in both the ability to achieve proper animal husbandry and knowing where their product comes from.
I believe if LFS's used an observation period it will not add to their bottom line costs in general. Think about it. A fish store runs 24/7 365. If you create a observational period of 2 weeks of new arrivals and you get an order every one to 2 weeks you would in theory only have a 2 week delay. But in reality it is not like they don't already have fish that haven’t been there for two weeks. People can also put a credit refundable deposit on a fish that they want. If the fish dies or gets sick, they can use the money for another fish so the money stays in house.
The LFS should demand that the distributor sells them viable fish or they get credited that amount.
The distribution center will make efforts to ensure they sell the LFS fish that have been in some sort of observation/feeding so that the LFS will receive a viable product.
The next step is getting the collectors/shippers to get the distributor the best product they can. This is a little more tricky because it usually happens in an economically repressed area. There is an article that I will link, it is pre-pano but still very relevant. One solution that was purposed, was that of a "organic" style labeling that would alert the consumer or LFS that they are getting a cyanide/chemical free fish. That labeling would demand a higher price and the fisherman would make more money per fish for his Family. Also the distributor could get more involved with the intake and shipping.

Soon, You Could Be Able to Tell if Your Aquarium Fish Was Caught With Cyanide

A new handheld detector aims to root out this widespread, destructive practice

www.smithsonianmag.com

These are just ideas and yes I am sure people can spot loop holes and problems in all of them. I just didn’t solve world hunger. But they are ideas that can be honed and modified into a system that works better than what we have.
The world is going green and conservation is part of that. Some people believe there are "Lots of fish in the sea". Whether that is about a failed relationship or actual fish. But some believe there are not whether that is true or not. The Hawaiian ban was created from public opinion not fact. We need to change the public opinion before they even have an opinion. The Lacey Act started to have more eyes on this industry as it is. In California we have more laws based on opinion and not facts and it is getting worse every day. But if you do not live here that doesn’t make you immune, it just hasn’t got to you yet.

As an LFS owner, my distributors had no control of livestock once it left their facility. I received everything as scheduled but unforeseen delays, stress of shipping, temperatures changes, etc plays a role in livestock health.
I had a hard time keeping fish in stock with 70% sold on arrival day although I had a one week warranty on fish.
I as many LFS do not have the room to store and nurture fish and I ran 10 hrs per day. not 24/7.
We cant demand viable fish when fish are in transport for many hours but hope for the best.
We get distressed fish and loss from shipment which we get credit for but cannot charge customers for water and salt.
Most LFS have a price structure or profit margin and use them to pay the bills- not adding on operating costs and time to pricing
I get what you are expressing but in the real world it does not work this way and when I ordered fish as with any entity, we are not going to feed and watch when the customer is drewling and wants that fish now, hence my 1 week warranty

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I am in 100% agreement with that. That is where the change has to happen but thats not where it will have to start.

I was lucky to be offered to make a "run" to one of the local LA wholesalers a while back because I had a Big shopping list, and I'm picky (also a helpful regular)

One thing I learned was that the moment they bag the fish, you own it. If it's looking great and they bag it, you come to box it later with your whole order and the fish is dead, you're paying for it.

We picked the healthiest looking fish, they were carefully netted and bagged under our watch.

Of ~130 fish, we had 15 DOA after a two hour drive. None showed any external signs of trauma or disease.

I don't know for sure, but will guess that along the entire supply chain, "once you bag it, you own it" is standard.

With that said, where does the change need to Start?

 

[littlebigreef]

Setting up a QT tank is the simplest and smartest thing you can do to protect your collection. I QT both fish and corals at this point.

The conversation on this thread has been interesting, specifically where accountability lies and what people expect. At the end of the day ‘should’ ‘would be nice’ etc matters little when the preverbal house is burning down. You’re the last line of defense for your animals, more folks need to recognize that awesome responsibility.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

This does not make sense if you think about it.

If your LFS brings in an order every 2 weeks which need to be housed for 2 weeks, separate from general population or (quarantined) then your LFS is paying for the water, salt, heat, lighting, as well as having to double the footprint of "for sale" fish until they are moved, for sale, correct?

How CAN that possibly not impact the bottom line?

This is how I look at it.
Let's say a LFS has 4 banks of tanks running currently. They yearly cost of running the 4 banks is $10,000. If the LFS uses one of those banks for a 2 weeks observation period. The yearly cost of running those 4 banks is still the same. You can argue that the LFS might lose $96 dollars in operating costs for one bank during the 2 week period. But in reality you are just condensing fish from 4 tanks into three because you have (hopefully) sold enough fish from the previous order to condense the rest. Also any perceived loss is made up in profit from selling fish that has been in observation.
Like I earlier explained it should not end with the consumer. The LFS should demand a higher quality product also. Unfortunately this may have to come from a big box store with buying power to make demands on the quality of product. Which hopefully in turn create a better product for all LFS. Or the LFS can unite to create a demand.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

but in the real world it does not work this way ....

That is only because someone before you told you how it was and you believed them.
The people who make change in this world are ones that go against all conventions. That maybe good or bad. Whether, if you stood up to a dictator or was the guy who revamped airline pricing so we have to pay $50 a bag now. Think about all the things that have changed because someone did something different.
I imagine your and other current pricing structure is based on an old system, but does it have to be that way?
The system is going to change, probably not in your favor, and most definitely from people not in this hobby.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

This is how I look at it.
Let's say a LFS has 4 banks of tanks running currently. They yearly cost of running the 4 banks is $10,000. If the LFS uses one of those banks for a 2 weeks observation period. The yearly cost of running those 4 banks is still the same. You can argue that the LFS might lose $96 dollars in operating costs for one bank during the 2 week period. But in reality you are just condensing fish from 4 tanks into three because you have (hopefully) sold enough fish from the previous order to condense the rest. Also any perceived loss is made up in profit from selling fish that has been in observation.
Like I earlier explained it should not end with the consumer. The LFS should demand a higher quality product also. Unfortunately this may have to come from a big box store with buying power to make demands on the quality of product. Which hopefully in turn create a better product for all LFS. Or the LFS can unite to create a demand.

I get what you are getting at.

The issue is taking that one bank offline for "for sale" merchandise, has an opportunity cost.

They didn't buy that $10k bank to not be making money on it just holding stock.

As Tony mentioned above, these fish don't sit in the tanks for a week.

Here is a screenshot of the list that came in today. This is every Monday. These fish don't just sit waiting to be sold. They are sold within a day or two. I won't even call them on Thursday looking for fish. They're all gone.

Holding these fish for 2 weeks (which I believe to be fully inadequate to be called a Quarantine) would need an additional TWO sets of 5 racks of 3 tall, 40b's just to hold the fish you plan to sell, in two weeks.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

That is only because someone before you told you how it was and you believed them.

OR, it could be because he's actually Lived it, and seen that people complaining, doesn't change a Global supply chain with thousands of links.


If someone thinks they can Actually affectuate this change, I would love to hear how.

I've heard nothing but complaining about how it is with nobody saying how it can realistically be fixed.

 

[Matt1997]

If the fish store knowingly sold you a diseased fish it’s on them. If they didn’t know and you chose not to QT then it falls on you. If they sold it to you disclaiming it needs qt it’s on you.