How much is the fish store accountable if they sell me a fish and I don't quarantine?

[Lost in the Sauce]

My opinion is it is on the LFS to know it’s sick. At a bare minimum a good LFS will assume a fish is sick and observe it. Any store not doing this shouldn’t be in business. It’s unreal how many in this hobby just accept that sick fish are status quo and that is somehow okay

What does this actually mean to you and how Is it put into effect in the real world?

Let's say your fish store gets their shipment of fish on Wednesday. We know these fish were caught a month ago, and have been transferred from person to person to holding tank to holding tank, before bagging to your LFS.

For how long do you believe they should observe the fish before selling it? If we're worried about disease, that is transmissible from fish to fish, this would have to be a separate system, right? You wouldn't expect this observation to happen in genpop or what's the point.

Should they watch for a day? Week? Month?


"It’s unreal how many in this hobby just accept that sick fish are status quo and that is somehow okay"

On the other hand, it's unreal that people believe that fish AREN'T likely to be sick after being transported, thrown in massive systems for days to weeks, stressed to the gills, fed lightly, with thousands of fish at distributers.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes, I think that is what I'm going to do first -- the observational QT. Give that a shot first. I would think if I quarantine for 30 days if they have ick or velvet, I will see it within that 30 day period.

I primarily use observational QTs for even shorter time frames than that mainly to get them acclimated and eating the food I'll be feeding them along with looking for abnormal behavior but 30 days sounds like a better time frame for you.

 

[brandon429]

0% store liability/ caveat emptor applies fully

it wasn't like this in 2005 but it is now

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

So far as LFS at blame.. Zero in this case.

You already had a full blow out from velvet. You knew the risks. You choose not to qt. You got got again. That's on you.

 

[amcclow]

Both are at fault IMO. As a hobby, we need to stop giving stores a pass for selling unhealthy livestock. They KNOW and we KNOW that every fish is going through hell to get to us and is hit with every parasite and disease out there. A store not willing to QT should go out of business.

Can you imagine going to buy a puppy and it is secretly sick but “looks in good health” so you purchase it to only it have it kill your other 10 dogs? We’d never accept that but we do with fish all the time.

I won’t shop at any of my LFS because none of them condition or QT their stuff. Some say they do but one look around shows that is a lie. I now buy all my fish from Dr Reef and have them conditioned. Everything has been amazing so far and my success level has skyrocketed.

Agreed. It is a bit odd to me that the community accepts that stores are not accountable for selling something that can kill your entire tank unless you as the consumer take additional protection action. Your dog example is a good one.

 

[Spare time]

Both are at fault IMO. As a hobby, we need to stop giving stores a pass for selling unhealthy livestock. They KNOW and we KNOW that every fish is going through hell to get to us and is hit with every parasite and disease out there. A store not willing to QT should go out of business.

Can you imagine going to buy a puppy and it is secretly sick but “looks in good health” so you purchase it to only it have it kill your other 10 dogs? We’d never accept that but we do with fish all the time.

I won’t shop at any of my LFS because none of them condition or QT their stuff. Some say they do but one look around shows that is a lie. I now buy all my fish from Dr Reef and have them conditioned. Everything has been amazing so far and my success level has skyrocketed.

If stores had to QT outside of keeping fish in copper water, there would be no lfs. Waiting 45 days till you can sell a product is brutal on a business. They should just tell people they need to QT the fish and go from there (even though people wouldn't like that and would go to another store)

 

[rtparty]

What does this actually mean to you and how Is it put into effect in the real world?

Let's say your fish store gets their shipment of fish on Wednesday. We know these fish were caught a month ago, and have been transferred from person to person to holding tank to holding tank, before bagging to your LFS.

For how long do you believe they should observe the fish before selling it? If we're worried about disease, that is transmissible from fish to fish, this would have to be a separate system, right? You wouldn't expect this observation to happen in genpop or what's the point.

Should they watch for a day? Week? Month?


"It’s unreal how many in this hobby just accept that sick fish are status quo and that is somehow okay"

On the other hand, it's unreal that people believe that fish AREN'T likely to be sick after being transported, thrown in massive systems for days to weeks, stressed to the gills, fed lightly, with thousands of fish at distributers.

Yes, a separate system usually in the back of the store where they can be observed and/or medicated to some degree. 30 day minimum for most. Each species has different requirements.

I fully understand the logistics and money involved in this and MANY stores would go away overnight with this approach. It is not easy and one must approach it with a different mentality. Online is going to be the best bet because you need a much larger audience to make enough money.

Almost all of this starts with educating hobbyists. Assume all fish are sick at your local store ESPECIALLY if they don't pride themselves on QTd/conditioned livestock. I know for a fact I don't have the time or skill to perform proper QT procedures nor do I know nearly enough about each disease. This is why I gladly pay someone else to do it who is better than I will ever be and the best part is, his prices are barely above most LFS.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

its not only not about quarantining.

Who knows for sure if you have good acclimation habits, or if you have an overstocked tank, or if the fish are compatible, are there hiding spots in the tank, if you have foul water, etc.... Its the stress that brings on disease and death, which you admit you have made mistakes.

Its not just about QT, its everything from a to z, it all has to be perfect, or the fish suffer stress, which can bring on disease. It takes homework and preparation to avoid any fish death.

 

[brandon429]

good call on acclimation as well.

 

[rtparty]

If stores had to QT outside of keeping fish in copper water, there would be no lfs. Waiting 45 days till you can sell a product is brutal on a business. They should just tell people they need to QT the fish and go from there (even though people wouldn't like that and would go to another store)

Welcome to business. Most of us put out money for 30-90 days before we see any cash come in. I don't want to see LFS go away but they need to get better if they want to stay around long term.

 

[ASIN28]

Fish store is at 0 fault. If you don’t quarantine that’s on you, not the fish store. I purchase fish from 3 different fish stores, (one that quarantines fully) and yet I still bring the fish home and they go directly into a QT tank. For everyone that tells you fish ordered online that are quarantined are any better I don’t agree. Great, the online store quarantines but then sends the fish for a 2nd time through the mail stressing the fish out to death before it gets to you.

 

[fish farmer]

Agreed. It is a bit odd to me that the community accepts that stores are not accountable for selling something that can kill your entire tank unless you as the consumer take additional protection action. Your dog example is a good one.

It's the way the fish hobby is run. Plus it is likely a lot easier to take a dog to a vet for vaccines, etc and a lot less delicate than a tropical fish shipped halfway around the world.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

I feel all LFS's should be responsible for a minimum of intaking fish properly, an observational period and eating properly. Then be able to bag the fish without over stressing the fish.
The consumer should get a healthy fish, we are not paying for a sick or dying fish.
Then after that, the health of the fish is on the consumer.
It should be the same with the distribution centers and down the line.
We need to change the thinking of these animals are expendable because they are delicate. They are delicate only because the ones making the profit do not want to reduce it by ensuring proper husbandry and or conservation. Maybe we would not have bans if more fish/corals/inverts arrived alive at their destinations.
That's my $2 (<---- inflation)

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Yes, a separate system usually in the back of the store where they can be observed and/or medicated to some degree. 30 day minimum for most. Each species has different requirements.

I fully understand the logistics and money involved in this and MANY stores would go away overnight with this approach. It is not easy and one must approach it with a different mentality. Online is going to be the best bet because you need a much larger audience to make enough money.

Almost all of this starts with educating hobbyists. Assume all fish are sick at your local store ESPECIALLY if they don't pride themselves on QTd/conditioned livestock. I know for a fact I don't have the time or skill to perform proper QT procedures nor do I know nearly enough about each disease. This is why I gladly pay someone else to do it who is better than I will ever be and the best part is, his prices are barely above most LFS.

We see this very differently.

What you're effectively saying is that it should be mandatory for someone that sells saltwater fish, to qt them prior to selling.

I would MUCH prefer to have an abundance of fish stores to choose from and spend my dollars with who does it best. This is capitalism, not regulation.

Most of these are mom and pop shops that can't afford to double or triple their shelf hold time, footprint energy bills, nor would they want to.

Where we agree, is that Education is important. Rather than forcing most shops to close, or just Stop selling saltwater fish all together, There could be a push on education.

In reality, When I set up my first reef tank and was buying a bunch of fish, Even if someone handed me a pamphlet letting me know the risks of not quarantine, and giving a few options both medicated and not as howto quarantining, I probably still wouldn't have.

I would have gotten velvet, wiped out most of my fish, THEN started to listen.

 

[rtparty]

It's the way the fish hobby is run. Plus it is likely a lot easier to take a dog to a vet for vaccines, etc and a lot less delicate than a tropical fish shipped halfway around the world.

The hobby is only run this way because WE have allowed it to.

Taking a dog to the vet for vaccines is a preventative measure and any good breeder will have already done this for you before you buy. Any breeder not doing this won't be in business long term. Same goes for a LFS, if you want to be in business and sell livestock, it is your job and responsibility as the seller to preventatively take care of the livestock you are selling. Any LFS owner that claims they "didn't know" the fish was sick (while they did nothing to prevent that sickness) is not a good owner or steward of the hobby.

We all know (at least SHOULD know) what these fish are going through to get to us. The mentality should be they ARE going to be sick and need some help. I am not talking immediately throw them in copper either. Simple observation away from the fish being sold is a good start. Then treat as anything pops up.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

What does this actually mean to you and how Is it put into effect in the real world?

Let's say your fish store gets their shipment of fish on Wednesday. We know these fish were caught a month ago, and have been transferred from person to person to holding tank to holding tank, before bagging to your LFS.

For how long do you believe they should observe the fish before selling it? If we're worried about disease, that is transmissible from fish to fish, this would have to be a separate system, right? You wouldn't expect this observation to happen in genpop or what's the point.

Should they watch for a day? Week? Month?


"It’s unreal how many in this hobby just accept that sick fish are status quo and that is somehow okay"

On the other hand, it's unreal that people believe that fish AREN'T likely to be sick after being transported, thrown in massive systems for days to weeks, stressed to the gills, fed lightly, with thousands of fish at distributers.

Your reply is exactly what we have to work on in this hobby (globally)
It can be done, Damsels will cost $40, Tangs $1000, but just think how much more responsible everybody will be.
A quote I heard one day was "My wife would break or lose watches all the time, until I bought her a Rolex."
If you up the Ante across the board it will become less of a numbers game and more of a $ game

 

[rtparty]

We see this very differently.

What you're effectively saying is that it should be mandatory for someone that sells saltwater fish, to qt them prior to selling.

I would MUCH prefer to have an abundance of fish stores to choose from and spend my dollars with who does it best. This is capitalism, not regulation.

Most of these are mom and pop shops that can't afford to double or triple their shelf hold time, footprint energy bills, nor would they want to.

Where we agree, is that Education is important. Rather than forcing most shops to close, or just Stop selling saltwater fish all together, There could be a push on education.

In reality, When I set up my first reef tank and was buying a bunch of fish, Even if someone handed me a pamphlet letting me know the risks of not quarantine, and giving a few options both medicated and not as howto quarantining, I probably still wouldn't have.

I would have gotten velvet, wiped out most of my fish, THEN started to listen.

I am not calling for any regulation. Especially not by any type of "government " entity. That would never work.

What I am saying is that we as hobbyists can tell these stores it is not okay to sell us sick livestock and expect us to nurse them back to health. If that is the case, they better be the lowest prices available with clear notice that nothing is being done to prevent illness. I think that is poor stewardship but some may be okay with it and that is up to each individual to decide.

 

[brandon429]

this is a great thread for new tank owners to read well before they read about ammonia issues in cycling.

this issue is in fact the #1 issue all reef cyclers face. disease, not ammonia issues. nobody has engineered a disease prevention out of the bottle idea, but they have for ammonia

 

[fish farmer]

The hobby is only run this way because WE have allowed it to.

Taking a dog to the vet for vaccines is a preventative measure and any good breeder will have already done this for you before you buy. Any breeder not doing this won't be in business long term. Same goes for a LFS, if you want to be in business and sell livestock, it is your job and responsibility as the seller to preventatively take care of the livestock you are selling. Any LFS owner that claims they "didn't know" the fish was sick (while they did nothing to prevent that sickness) is not a good owner or steward of the hobby.

We all know (at least SHOULD know) what these fish are going through to get to us. The mentality should be they ARE going to be sick and need some help. I am not talking immediately throw them in copper either. Simple observation away from the fish being sold is a good start. Then treat as anything pops up.

I agree.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Your reply is exactly what we have to work on in this hobby (globally)
It can be done, Damsels will cost $40, Tangs $1000, but just think how much more responsible everybody will be.
A quote I heard one day was "My wife would break or lose watches all the time, until I bought her a Rolex."
If you up the Ante across the board it will become less of a numbers game and more of a $ game

We don't agree on the specific Problem so can't really come together on a solution.

Call me calloused, but I'd rather tang's be $100, have 10 fish stores to choose from, and entrust the health and welfare of the fish, to the end user who is buying it, and intends to keep it. If that means some fish die, then some fish die. We aren't decimating the world's population of ornamental fish, bringing them into the trade. A lot of fish die before they even hit the first exporter.

I don't think the system is broken. I think Generally, people are Lazy or Uneducated.

You can fix one, not there other. I'd rather have a bigger supply, and an educated consumer base, who care enough about their fish to get them healthy and keep them long-term.