HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[BeanAnimal]

They make bold claims, but don’t like to be called out on it.

I have made no claims whatsoever about my tank or anybody else's. I just don't agree with some of your logic or conclusions. I have explained why and you have answered, using the same data and logic as a reference. It is circular.

 

[Reefahholic]

So let’s say that Hobby Grade test kits are 2% more accurate than some ICP labs. So what. It’s not going to crash your reef.

Furthermore, they are still COMPLETELY BLIND and helpless when it comes to 40 other elements. There’s no test kits available, and even 50% of their original 8 elements are a real PITA to test for and hard to read. Not to mention the money it takes to maintain all those test kits.

YES…40 other elements! That’s not a typo.

They can’t see their source water.

They can’t monitor or dose 98% of the trace elements back.

They can’t check on almost 100% of potential pollutants.

So….

 

[Reefahholic]

I have made no claims whatsoever about my tank or anybody else's. I just don't agree with some of your logic or conclusions. I have explained why and you have answered, using the same data and logic as a reference. It is circular.

Ok, so your thoughts on this:

So let’s say that Hobby Grade test kits are 2% more accurate than some ICP labs. So what. It’s not going to crash your reef.

Furthermore, they are still COMPLETELY BLIND and helpless when it comes to 40 other elements. There’s no test kits available, and even 50% of their original 8 elements are a real PITA to test for and hard to read. Not to mention the money it takes to maintain all those test kits.

YES…40 other elements! That’s not a typo.

They can’t see their source water.

They can’t monitor or dose 98% of the trace elements back.

They can’t check on almost 100% of potential pollutants.


Who’s taking the bigger risk?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Furthermore, they are still COMPLETELY BLIND and helpless when it comes to 40 other elements. There’s no test kits available, and even 50% of their original 8 elements are a real PITA to test for and hard to read. Not to mention the money it takes to maintain all those test kits.

YES…40 other elements! That’s not a typo.

They can’t see their source water.

They can’t monitor or dose 98% of the trace elements back.

They can’t check on almost 100% of potential pollutants.

So….

When somebody can show me that each of those 40 elements are important and can be tested with reasonable precision and accuracy in the proper form and dosed in the proper form, then we can have that conversation.

 

[Reefahholic]

When somebody can show me that each of those 40 elements are important and can be tested with reasonable precision and accuracy in the proper form and dosed in the proper form, then we can have that conversation.

I think you can see that now looking at growth, color, and data trending. So until you are satisfied, you will leave 98% of trace elements unmonitored/dosed. You’re comfortable leaving source water unchecked. You’re comfortable with leaving 100% of the pollutants unmonitored/corrected.? I can’t believe my ears!

All I know is my colors are looking good.
Must be because when I see pollutants I try to correct that, and when I see any element is depleted I dose it up.

 

[Reefahholic]

When somebody can show me that each of those 40 elements are important and can be tested with reasonable precision and accuracy in the proper form and dosed in the proper form, then we can have that conversation.

What about these elements. Do you think these are important?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think you can see that now looking at growth, color, and data trending. So until you are satisfied, you will leave 98% of trace elements unmonitored/dosed. You’re comfortable leaving source water unchecked. You’re comfortable with leaving 100% of the pollutants unmonitored/corrected.? I can’t believe my ears!

Yet - People who do not subscribe to this method achieve comparable results. Some with water changes, some with no water changes, etc.

We discussed that early in this thread. You have a beautiful tank. That does not change my position on the accuracy of the test, dosing or what can or can not be correlated to successful reefing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

What about these elements. Do you think these are important?

It is start, but not 50 elements and does nothing to answer the questions regarding testing accuracy or precision or the form of the elements in the water or how they are being dosed. That has all been covered in this thread several times as well when you previously posted this information.

it is an interesting discussion (and worthy of its own thread for sure) but still does not address the error rates in accuracy, precision or elemental forms (as well as water aging, filtering, etc) that have been raised.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Prior to this thread, I was looking into adding ~8 - 12 more dosing heads for ICP based trace dosing. A discussion last year with Mike Paletta partially swayed me.

The results of these tests have given me pause, as (honestly) has your zealosy to promote the program using the program as the data reference.

Your tank is beautiful, but what you have presented here is a lot of faith in a few people and a few tests and a lot of circular source citing. The people are selling something and and you sound like a salesman.

My motivation has not been to call you out or discredit the method (at all). Ignoring WHAT elements and what levels are important, I just don't see how you can trust the data to test and dose to those levels.

So, again...
I am on the fence but you are not doing anything to convince me (I can't speak for others) and instead you are actually making me question where the science ends and the religion begins.

 

[areefer01]

If you were designing the life support system for a deep space mission, would you sample our air and ensure that all of those things were included?

Hmm...please oh please notify JPL and Lockheed Martin Astronautics to agree on the same units in the English system for their acceleration calculations... That is if either party is involved in this deep space mission.

 

[ingchr1]

Not really.

Is there a potential that filtering the sample is removing larger size pollutants that might be important to know?

 

[Reefahholic]

Yet - People who do not subscribe to this method achieve comparable results. Some with water changes, some with no water changes, etc.

We discussed that early in this thread. You have a beautiful tank. That does not change my position on the accuracy of the test, dosing or what can or can not be correlated to successful reefing.

Fair enough.

 

[rtparty]

@Reefahholic your passion is commendable and I mean this in jest and with respect.

Once you cross the a.grandis line, nobody is listening and you are convincing no one

 

[Reefahholic]

It is start, but not 50 elements

Well hey, it’s a start. You have to start somewhere. You won’t be dosing all 50 elements. You’re monitoring about 1/2 of them to try and avoid/correct pollution in the system.

Prior to this thread, I was looking into adding ~8 - 12 more dosing heads for ICP based trace dosing. A discussion last year with Mike Paletta partially swayed me.

Well, I’m glad he swayed you at one point. Honestly, (if hobby kits were more accurate) what would a 2-3% or even a slightly higher percentage of error do for most elements? Let’s say calcium is 430 and the ICP is 2% off. So it would be 438 or 421 ppm.

Is there a potential that filtering the sample is removing larger size pollutants that might be important to know?

No

 

[Reefahholic]

@Reefahholic your passion is commendable and I mean this in jest and with respect.

Once you cross the a.grandis line, nobody is listening and you are convincing no one

Well, you don’t have to listen, but I appreciate the kind words.

Look… I just want all of you guys to experience what I’ve experienced. You don’t have to use the same method. You don’t have to use OCEAMO. I can promise I’m not being paid by anybody. I have some health issues going on and could never keep up with a sponsorship. Most of my chatting is here at work.

I just believe taking a step in the right direction would greatly benefit your system if you use one of the top 3 labs and if you’re able to understand a little chemistry you could purchase your own raw elements and figure out the doses.

For most folks it’s much easier to follow the lead of veterans (whoever they might be) and use their dosing calculators, their supplements created for their programs, etc. It’s not just about raw elements though. There is a lot more to it than that. Some elements have very poor bioavailability. Others lack purity. You also need to know dose potency, and how long to run out correction doses so that you don’t nuke the corals. Some corals will obviously not tolerate bigger correction doses.

At the end of the day we can agree to disagree. I just hate that we can all join the same team and grow some nice vivid Acro’s. That really hurts my heart, because we could bring these methods to the next level.

 

[Reefahholic]

Once you cross the a.grandis line,

I love that guy BTW…he’s passionate about Haldies and love his energy.

 

[taricha]

What about these elements. Do you think these are important?

Just to be clear, you're using this as an argument that it's important to be able to measure those elements in the water because they are crucial to biological mechanisms...

But you could make the reverse argument from that illustration too. This info could also be interpreted as a demonstration that those elements are delivered into our system anytime we feed live / nearly live foods.
And it could be used to make an argument that I need not measure those elements in the water at all, if I can just provide corals with phyto / bacteria / etc - then they would get those elements because they are crucial to the biology of the food the corals consumed.

 

[rtparty]

Well, you don’t have to listen, but I appreciate the kind words.

Look… I just want all of you guys to experience what I’ve experienced. You don’t have to use the same method. You don’t have to use OCEAMO. I can promise I’m not being paid by anybody. I have some health issues going on and could never keep up with a sponsorship. Most of my chatting is here at work.

I just believe taking a step in the right direction would greatly benefit your system if you use one of the top 3 labs and if you’re able to understand a little chemistry you could purchase your own raw elements and figure out the doses.

For most folks it’s much easier to follow the lead of veterans (whoever they might be) and use their dosing calculators, their supplements created for their programs, etc. It’s not just about raw elements though. There is a lot more to it than that. Some elements have very poor bioavailability. Others lack purity. You also need to know dose potency, and how long to run out correction doses so that you don’t nuke the corals. Some corals will obviously not tolerate bigger correction doses.

At the end of the day we can agree to disagree. I just hate that we can all join the same team and grow some nice vivid Acro’s. That really hurts my heart, because we could bring these methods to the next level.

I’ve already been where you are. Been there, done that as they say. For more than 2 years.

I also quit it a year ago and my tank hasn’t skipped a beat. I now just dose trace elements in a shotgun approach with the motto: Some is better than none, but less is better than more.

My pics suck no matter what I try. Maybe the DSLR and some post edit will help. If I have time, I’ll try to figure it all out.

My belief is the “nice tanks” we see on social are 90% or more the person understands how to take pics and even tweak them just enough.

 

[Pod_01]

My pics suck no matter what I try. Maybe the DSLR and some post edit will help. If I have time, I’ll try to figure it all out.

I don’t take perfect pictures but they are passable. I been accused of photoshop…

All I use is iPhone default settings with this filter:

Most of the time I use the 15k filter. I used to use the polyp lab set but it doesn’t fit on my iPhone.

What I find is that I get the best pictures in the afternoon 5/6 pm. The ambient light is just perfect and the tank light is set for viewing ( blue).

 

[Reefahholic]

This info could also be interpreted as a demonstration that those elements are delivered into our system anytime we feed live / nearly live foods.
And it could be used to make an argument that I need not measure those elements in the water at all, if I can just provide corals with phyto / bacteria / etc - then they would get those elements because they are crucial to the biology of the food the corals consumed.

From what I’ve seen, only slow growing systems with minimal biomass are able to get enough. Once a system has a moderate amount of corals, certain elements are starting to become depleted. It’s true that feeds and other things bring some trace elements into the system, but in almost all cases it just isn’t enough. There’s always several depleted elements. Even those doing water changes are still lacking. This could be partially due to skimmers, mechanical media, or macro algae. Not sure. I just no they’re not there no matter what people are doing unless they’re dosing them back.

I want to be clear. You can grow corals in a bucket with a lot of things depleted with very little flow or light, but for most of us that is not optimal. I’m personally not ok with the coral merely existing or growing slow. They grow too slow as it is. I want the coral to color up, thrive, and grow as fast as possible. It’s an animal and I want it in the best conditions.

Also, you can have a minimal bacteria population that live off fish poop and feed, but they are constantly being exported by your skimmer or consumed. Think about how much your bacterial population will explode with the introduction of organic carbon and more bacteria supplementation. They also need trace elements like corals. I want to make sure they’re getting enough. I’ve never had this many pods or coralline algae since switching to ICP-MS. There is definitely something to be said for increasing those trace metals.