HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[KStatefan]

What specifically are you disappointed about?

That the ICP test are not as good as advertised. I wanted to trust that when I received a result from them is was better then what I could do my self.

 

[Rick Mathew]

Yes I understand your disappointment... but the good news is with a little bit of practice you can get really good results with your hobby grade test kits. Definitely fit for use results.

 

[Reefahholic]

This is great intel. Thank you for sharing. I trust my hand testing for major parameters but use ICP for minors/ traces. I was unaware of the magnesium discrepency. ICP did always seem to come back a little low.
I also will be picking up a Hanna iron checker. I knew there was a problem with iron and ICP but didn't know it was so extreme. I almost never get detectable iron on the results.

Are you dosing iron?

 

[Latte]

This is incredible - really well designed and definitely prompts a lot of questions about ICP analysis. I wonder if it would have been better to present the squared errors of difference rather than the % detected? Unsure which way more accurately presents the results, but there are some issues with current presentation and the fact that some results are under and some over, but really I'm nitpicking here.

Thanks for taking the time to post this here.

 

[Harpo]

This was a very interesting read but also disappointing.

Agreed

 

[Reefahholic]

Obviously there are not Hobby Grade Test Kits available for every element on the ICP testing docket, so we selected 8 for which there were readily available test kits.

This is the problem. You can’t rely solely on hobby grade test kits. Only a handful are offered, but can you imagine testing 50 elements by hand. If you’ve ever tried to test something like Potassium, it pretty much sucks.

• The testing protocol:
• Chemical testers
  • Test their samples immediately upon arrival ≈ 3 days

How many of these samples were filtered or used a nutrient stabilizer?

he could almost always find a few ppb of measurable Iron from most any reef tank water.

I disagree with Dr. Bingman here. Anybody that has a thriving acropora system can tell you that Fe is being consumed very rapidly. Maybe if you’re testing new systems with slow growth you will find values, but to say you can always find iron in every system at 2 ug/L is just not true. Even if you’re dosing iron it’s being used quit rapidly if the system is growing well.

 

[billyocean]

This is the problem. You can’t rely solely on hobby grade test kits. Only a handful are offered, but can you imagine testing 50 elements by hand. If you’ve ever tried to test something like Potassium, it pretty much sucks.

How many of these samples were filtered or used a nutrient stabilizer?



I disagree with Dr. Bingman here. Anybody that has a thriving acropora system can tell you that Fe is being consumed very rapidly. Maybe if you’re testing new systems with slow growth you will find values, but to say you can always find iron in every system at 2 ug/L is just not true. Even if you’re dosing iron it’s being used quit rapidly if the system is growing well.

The salifert potassium kit was pretty easy and supposed to be accurate but no idea when it's back in stock

 

[Reefahholic]

And while it wasn’t the intent, this also proves multiple ICP companies shouldn’t be trusted at all IMO

Yep, and those companies really skew the average.

 

[Rick Mathew]

This is the problem. You can’t rely solely on hobby grade test kits. Only a handful are offered, but can you imagine testing 50 elements by hand. If you’ve ever tried to test something like Potassium, it pretty much sucks.

How many of these samples were filtered or used a nutrient stabilizer?



I disagree with Dr. Bingman here. Anybody that has a thriving acropora system can tell you that Fe is being consumed very rapidly. Maybe if you’re testing new systems with slow growth you will find values, but to say you can always find iron in every system at 2 ug/L is just not true. Even if you’re dosing iron it’s being used quit rapidly if the system is growing

I filtered all of the samples that I tested but I did not use any nutrient stabilizers.

 

[Snoopy 67]

A big thanks for all the work you guys did. It’s nice to know that we can get pretty accurate results from our own testing methods. Makes me feel a lot better knowing I’m as close as possible knowing where things are.

 

[Miami Reef]

Thank you for all this hard work! The results were very enlightening, and I was a little sad to see the results. I thought ICP was supposed to be accurate for all the elements.

I believe manganese isn’t accurate with ICP. Despite dosing a little over natural sea water every week, the values never rose above undetectable with ICP.

Now, I have a high precision hydrometer (Tropic Marin). I tested my salinity at 1.0266 (35ppt) (temp compensated) at the time the sample was collection, but ATI ICP said my salinity was 34.4ppt

That’s when my skepticism for ICP started.

 

[Reefahholic]

The salifert potassium kit was pretty easy and supposed to be accurate but no idea when it's back in stock

I’ve used some of them and some are really a PITA. For example, look at Strontium below. Too much of a headache for me to do all these tests every 3-4 weeks. I don’t mind using the Hanna’s, and I find them to be accurate with my ICP results, but most of the others are too much work. I honestly trust OCEAMO more than myself to perform my testing. I send them out, get the results, make corrections and literally see the difference in corrections down to 0.1-0.2 ug/L. That has been consistent. Corals have never looked better, and when you see the changes in the system after multiple ICP’s and you see the progress in other systems using the same lab, you start to trust the operator/lab, but with anything in life mistakes can be made. We have results in the hospital that we have to question all the time, and we’re taking multi million dollar equipment with strict QC and calibration. It is not uncommon to redraw labs sometimes to verify results.

For example if I’m using Hanna’s to test Alk and Nitrate. Let’s say my Alk is typically testing at 8.3 and NO3 is testing at 15, and one day Alk comes back at 12, and NO3 comes back at 6.? Will I make corrections? Nope. It’s very simple, if you know your system and nothing has been changed you will always question result’s especially if the element could crash your system.

 

[Reefahholic]

I filtered all of the samples that I tested but I did not use any nutrient stabilizers.

May I ask what you guys filtered with? Did you use the CHROMAFIL Xtra PET-20/25 0.2 um filter?

 

[jason2459]

Great job. Agreed and posted a while ago about multiple ICP vs Test kit vs Test kit. And nothing is more important than observations of the tank itself with your own eyes.

 

[Reefahholic]

I really do appreciate the work that goes into these experiments. I’d say from what I’m seeing comparing some of the ICP labs that the results are fairly accurate.

I cannot speak to Dan or Taricha’s testing abilities. Hehe. I would need to sit down with them and have them both perform 10 Hanna ULR Phosphorus tests with my sample water simultaneously (real-time) and compare their results with mine.

 

[Reefahholic]

What specifically are you disappointed about?

I can’t speak for KStatefan, but using less experienced labs or newly opened labs with unqualified staff and poor technique/ environment… is like taking Dan P and Taricha, and averaging their experienced testing abilities with two noobs who just entered the hobby a few years ago. The results aren’t going to average out fairly.

 

[Reefahholic]

I really have no explanation...Bad test??...This is notably unusual for them...As you can see from some of the other work they are much better than these results...This question in general is another issue for outside testing...no replicas to see if there is a testing problem...

Did you guys use the US lab?

 

[jason2459]

I can’t speak for KStatefan, but using less experienced labs or newly opened labs with unqualified staff and poor technique/ environment… is like taking Dan P and Taricha, and averaging their experienced testing abilities with two noobs who just entered the hobby a few years ago. The results aren’t going to average out fairly.

If we're paying for a service I wouldn't expect anything more then the accuracy of the testing equipment and not the person behind it.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes I understand your disappointment... but the good news is with a little bit of practice you can get really good results with your hobby grade test kits. Definitely fit for use results.

Here’s what’s depressing Rick.

so we selected 8 for which there were readily available test kits. They are Calcium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Phosphorous, Potassium and Silica.

You have about 8 or so hobby grade test kits which I’d argue the average reefer has a difficult time performing and reading the results.

The big problem is that there’s about 20 other elements you can’t test for and about 20+ other pollutants that could be in the system or coming through the RODI filters. Now what? You can’t test for those and even if you could would you test 50+ elements every 3-4 weeks or even every 3 months?

So you’re actually gambling “more” without sending ICP.

I find that many people have a major problem with source water. Or they have pollution in the system. If you’re finding and eliminating these issues that’s half the battle. It’s not just about major and trace elements. It’s everything as a whole.

Anybody could try to persuade me and say…

“Hey man…I don’t think ICP is accurate. You should really consider picking up these 8 super accurate hobby grade test kits and testing these 8 elements every 3 weeks.”

My reply will be very simple….

“Fantastic, I will consider it maybe some day, but what about the other 40+ elements that you’re not testing for?”

The biggest problem is that most reefers don’t like to test in general. This is why I believe ICP testing (Specifically ICP-MS) is the future of this hobby. Fan or not…trust it or not…many of us are seeing excellent results (better than we ever have), and I think half of it boils down to stopping elements that are being overdosed. That could be major’s or trace’s, stopping pollutants from coming in, or catching corroding equipment before it starts to nuke the system. I have not seen any hobby grade test kits for Tungsten, Neodymium, or Antimony.

 

[rtparty]

Yep, and those companies really skew the average.

Not even looking at the averages. Look at them all individually. There are only 2 companies I’d send ICP to and I wouldn’t say either aced the test. Did better than the others but still shows there are some serious things to consider with ICP testing