HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[KStatefan]

That looks very nice

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I’ve never sent off for an ICP Test. Other Hobbyist I’ve talked to, it’s about Four weeks, from when the Sample was collected and the testing is done. How much of the minerals in the water, end up bonding to the glass vial? BTW, I have sent off Computer Room Glycol Coolant, Cooling Tower Water, and Closed Loop Water, all that testing was done much quicker.

 

[KStatefan]

I’ve never sent off for an ICP Test. Other Hobbyist I’ve talked to, it’s about Four weeks, from when the Sample was collected and the testing is done. How much of the minerals in the water, end up bonding to the glass vial? BTW, I have sent off Computer Room Glycol Coolant, Cooling Tower Water, and Closed Loop Water, all that testing was done much quicker.

What lab were they sending the samples to that took 4 weeks?

That has not been my experience with the ICP I have sent in.

 

[jda]

Thanks for doing this - it was a fun read.

I doubt that still after 14 pages most folks don't know that a lot of what comes back on an ICP test was done by the same methods as the hobby grade test kit was - anything reported as a compound. The other stuff is just element count with I still think is mostly worthless.

Did I miss in this 14 pages a breakdown of the things in an ICP test that are the same? I think that it would make a difference if most hobbyists knew that the ICP company was doing an acetic acid test to determine phosphates too.

 

[Pod_01]

What lab were they sending the samples to that took 4 weeks?

That has not been my experience with the ICP I have sent in.

I suspect the sample went to wrong address.
Honestly most ICP testing is Europe and US centric. If you are not in these locations good luck. Where I am some samples took 6 weeks and the fastest was 7 days (my jaw dropped)…. The average is 10-14 days these days but it is starting to get longer.
Also choice is limited so discussing who to use is entertaining but useless in the end.

 

[Pod_01]

The other stuff is just element count with I still think is mostly worthless.

Would you be willing to elaborate what is worthless???
Right now this statement states a lot but there is no substance to it.
Ca is element, worthless? Mg worthless? I is worthless? Etc….

If all elements are worthless why use CarX, top off with fresh water should work?

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I believe the samples went to the West Coast, they were shipped from the Mid-Atlantic Region. Results came back from Germany???

 

[jda]

I need to know what form most of those elements are in for the numbers to be of any value. Are they elemental, are the bound to something else, are the bound to organics? Then, after this, there is not really any good knowledge on any set points for them in each form - I mean, besides what a company selling you a supplment says.

For example, I could get a number for iodine, which is an element. Was it in elemental form, idoide, idodate, organically bound iodine, bound to potassium or sodium, etc.? One of these is useful. The others are not. One is a poison at high enough levels. The iodine number from ICP tells me nothing.

Besides, I said mostly worthless. I am leaving the possibility that there is some value to just counting base elements without knowing the form, but I am not sure what it is yet.

Do folks know that many compounds that you care about are not getting to the plasma? They are doing titration for Alk. They are doing color changing for no3, po4, etc. You can do this at home, which I think is the point of this whole thread.

 

[MnFish1]

I need to know what form most of those elements are in for the numbers to be of any value. Are they elemental, are the bound to something else, are the bound to organics? Then, after this, there is not really any good knowledge on any set points for them in each form - I mean, besides what a company selling you a supplment says.

For example, I could get a number for iodine, which is an element. Was it in elemental form, idoide, idodate, organically bound iodine, bound to potassium or sodium, etc.? One of these is useful. The others are not. One is a poison at high enough levels. The iodine number from ICP tells me nothing.

Besides, I said mostly worthless. I am leaving the possibility that there is some value to just counting base elements without knowing the form, but I am not sure what it is yet.

Do folks know that many compounds that you care about are not getting to the plasma? They are doing titration for Alk. They are doing color changing for no3, po4, etc. You can do this at home, which I think is the point of this whole thread.

Agreed. I would assume that ICP companies take 'seawater' - and measure the elements (as you said - organic, inorganic, etc etc) - and make a normal 'range'. Thus - (hopefully they are doing it this way) - the goal is to have a similar level to seawater. Having said even that, if seawater has an 'I' level of x that is mostly inorganic, and a given tank has 'I' that is in an organic form of 'x' - the levels may be the same - but the type may be totally different. This also can apply to the 'spiking' done in this experiment - depending on what type of each element was used.

As @Randy Holmes-Farley has said in other threads, for example - iron measurements are problematic.

 

[Pod_01]

the goal is to have a similar level to seawater.

Is it? Would that even work?

I honestly don’t think my reef tank is in any form or shape close to seawater. More like a slum!!!!
I don’t think there is anything about reef tank that is like real ocean, just look at the ratio of water to surfaces. Reef tank is like a stadium and there is a drop of water. Oceans are the opposite.

Look at Alk of 9,10 etc… people run, not like seawater. Look at NO3/ PO4 in general 99% don’t have seawater levels etc…. Some don’t even feed, just hope that light provides enough of nutrients.

 

[MnFish1]

Is it? Would that even work?

I honestly don’t think my reef tank is in any form or shape close to seawater. More like a slum!!!!
I don’t think there is anything about reef tank that is like real ocean, just look at the ratio of water to surfaces. Reef tank is like a stadium and there is a drop of water. Oceans are the opposite.

Look at Alk of 9,10 etc… people run, not like seawater. Look at NO3/ PO4 in general 99% don’t have seawater levels etc…. Some don’t even feed, just hope that light provides enough of nutrients.

I was talking about icp which does not measure alk

 

[areefer01]

Is it? Would that even work?

I honestly don’t think my reef tank is in any form or shape close to seawater. More like a slum!!!!
I don’t think there is anything about reef tank that is like real ocean, just look at the ratio of water to surfaces. Reef tank is like a stadium and there is a drop of water. Oceans are the opposite.

Look at Alk of 9,10 etc… people run, not like seawater. Look at NO3/ PO4 in general 99% don’t have seawater levels etc…. Some don’t even feed, just hope that light provides enough of nutrients.

You left off flow....so very important and 9 out of 10 times we get it wrong. Oh and herbivores. Healthy reefs have plenty of herbivores. Those that are dead or dyeing or over run with algae usually don't have any outside of other environmental impacts such as pesticides or temps, etc. We'll leave that one alone though.

So flow and herbivores

 

[Pod_01]

You left off flow....so very important and 9 out of 10 times we get it wrong. Oh and herbivores. Healthy reefs have plenty of herbivores. Those that are dead or dyeing or over run with algae usually don't have any outside of other environmental impacts such as pesticides or temps, etc. We'll leave that one alone though.

So flow and herbivores

That is why I said reef tanks (my included) is a slum compared to the ocean.
Flow is important but that is another touchy subject. Herbivores and snails are important. Also more fish not less…

But regardless I really believe stating that reef tank should be like ocean is incorrect starting point.
Most reef tank start with dead rock, dead sand, few fish and some frags. Providing saltwater parameters, super bright light and you get disaster…
I am still dealing with consequences because I followed that assumption.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Absolutely. It’s only noisy if you try to compare all the labs to each other. The same would happen if you compare all salt brands.

That's a very strange comparison.

Salts do not need to or even pretend to supply the same concentrations. They can and do differ.

Icp companies certainly intend to give the same accurate results. If two differ on a single sample, one or both MUST be wrong.

 

[areefer01]

Icp companies certainly intend to give the same accurate results.

Between each other though? Note when I read this I am interpreting you to mean that they are saying their results are the same which may not be what you mean.

 

[rtparty]

Between each other though? Note when I read this I am interpreting you to mean that they are saying their results are the same which may not be what you mean.

That each ICP company is going to claim they are the accurate result

 

[areefer01]

That each ICP company is going to claim they are the accurate result

Got it. I figured I was reading into what it wasn't.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Between each other though? Note when I read this I am interpreting you to mean that they are saying their results are the same which may not be what you mean.

Not sure I understand. When someone collects a sample and sends it off, there is one correct answer for a given element and everything else is wrong. A reproducible wrong answer is not a correct answer.

 

[areefer01]

Not sure I understand. When someone collects a sample and sends it off, there is one correct answer for a given element and everything else is wrong. A reproducible wrong answer is not a correct answer.

I understand that. I was asking what you mean when you wrote "Icp companies certainly intend to give the same accurate results".

 

[Reefahholic]

Andre just sent several ICP-MS on multiple products. I edited this picture to avoid drama, but you can see that ICP data can be very beneficial to eliminate products containing higher levels of certain elements which can become a problem over time. Without this data we couldn’t eliminate these issues. Thank you OCEAMO.

We can pretend this data isn’t accurate, but I can promise that people with higher levels will see a reduction. You can bet on that.