Help identifying this disease

[SweaterVest]

#fishmedic -- I'm trying to diagnose a visible disease which is primarily affecting one of my clownfish. Symptoms started approximately 1 week ago, after I cleaned my substrate (the water was quite cloudy for a bit after that, I disturbed some gravel and blew off the rocks with turkey baster). The fish are feeding well. Breathing seems normal. I have noticed some occasional flashing on my tang.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef
Aquarium water volume: 280L
Filtration type: Biological, protein skimmer, filter socks
Lighting: LED
How long has the aquarium been established? 8 months

Water quality:
Temperature: 25.5'C
pH: ~8
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm (Salifert)
Phosphorus: 0.20 (Hanna ULR)
Copper: 0

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? NO
Are any invertebrates affected? NO
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): 100
Are the affected fish still feeding? YES
What remedies have you tried so far? low dose H2O2 (15ml of 6% H2O2) every ~ 10 hours directly to DT.

 

[MnFish1]

#fishmedic -- I'm trying to diagnose a visible disease which is primarily affecting one of my clownfish. Symptoms started approximately 1 week ago, after I cleaned my substrate (the water was quite cloudy for a bit after that, I disturbed some gravel and blew off the rocks with turkey baster). The fish are feeding well. Breathing seems normal. I have noticed some occasional flashing on my tang.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef
Aquarium water volume: 280L
Filtration type: Biological, protein skimmer, filter socks
Lighting: LED
How long has the aquarium been established? 8 months

Water quality:
Temperature: 25.5'C
pH: ~8
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5ppm (Salifert)
Phosphorus: 0.20 (Hanna ULR)
Copper: 0

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? NO
Are any invertebrates affected? NO
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): 100
Are the affected fish still feeding? YES
What remedies have you tried so far? low dose H2O2 (15ml of 6% H2O2) every ~ 10 hours directly to DT.

this looks like ich - with mucus over-production. At first I was going to suggest brooklynella, but the fact that you have a tang flashing (less common to get brooklynella) and the appearance of the clown and lack of breathing issues (I can't really see the video) makes ich more likely. The treatment would be copper for 30 days in a hospital type tank. All of the fish should be treated. I would watch carefully for any evidence that this is progressing to more breathing issues, etc. which might suggest another process like brooklynella. Can you give any updates - could you post the video to youtube

 

[vetteguy53081]

Video is very fuzzy to tell but the clown appears to have ich and if true, the other fish are likely infected., and all will require treatment with coppersafe at 2.25 treatment level monitored with hanna brand copper test kit. The current display tank will need to be fishless (fallow for 6-8 weeks) to assure all parasites have died off without a host fish. Add aeration with air stone during treatment and monitor ammonia with reliable test kit

 

[SweaterVest]

Thank you @vetteguy53081 and @MnFish1 for your quick replies. Curious to me that the Mollys (I have a molly in my QT and one in my DT) were not the first to show disease? All fish present in DT were initially quarantined (with Mollys) using hybrid TTM. I would have thought that the Mollys would be the first to show sicknesses due to their apparent lack of marine disease immunity. Perhaps this is just the nature of the unpredictability of natural systems.

 

[Australian_Reef]

Definitely ich

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you @vetteguy53081 and @MnFish1 for your quick replies. Curious to me that the Mollys (I have a molly in my QT and one in my DT) were not the first to show disease? All fish present in DT were initially quarantined (with Mollys) using hybrid TTM. I would have thought that the Mollys would be the first to show sicknesses due to their apparent lack of marine disease immunity. Perhaps this is just the nature of the unpredictability of natural systems.

That Molly trick is highly overrated - cool idea, but lack of immunity to ich is common to many fish, not just mollies. Also, black mollies are better to use because they show ich much more clearly.

I agree this looks like ich, but does the other clown show ANY spots? You may need to look really close. While it is common for only some fish to develop ich first, more generally, related fish will show spots at about the same time.

 

[SweaterVest]

That Molly trick is highly overrated - cool idea, but lack of immunity to ich is common to many fish, not just mollies. Also, black mollies are better to use because they show ich much more clearly.

I agree this looks like ich, but does the other clown show ANY spots? You may need to look really close. While it is common for only some fish to develop ich first, more generally, related fish will show spots at about the same time.

My other clownfish does not have any spots or slime sloughing, and I don't otherwise see any issues with it. He's so hard to get a good photo of.

At my LFS he doesn't have pure black mollies unfortunately. Most of them are half n half. 2/4 didn't survive the acclimation to marine. One that did is pure orange . The other at least has a black tail.

I had a velvet outbreak in Feb of this year. Ended up losing some fish but used that experience to setup QT. DT was fallow for 8 weeks at high temps. All new fish get hybrid TTM. Corals and inverts get QT as well, separately. Oh well, QT isn't perfect! Looking at UV now.

 

[Jekyl]

My other clownfish does not have any spots or slime sloughing, and I don't otherwise see any issues with it. He's so hard to get a good photo of.

At my LFS he doesn't have pure black mollies unfortunately. Most of them are half n half. 2/4 didn't survive the acclimation to marine. One that did is pure orange . The other at least has a black tail.

I had a velvet outbreak in Feb of this year. Ended up losing some fish but used that experience to setup QT. DT was fallow for 8 weeks at high temps. All new fish get hybrid TTM. Corals and inverts get QT as well, separately. Oh well, QT isn't perfect! Looking at UV now.

Here is the method recommended by the site.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[SweaterVest]

Here is the method recommended by the site.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

No problem to put fish back in QT setup. One issue that we have here in Ireland is that Coppersafe is not available. It's really hard to get. UK / EU same. When I was dealing with velvet outbreak in Feb I had to source alternative mediations for copper, all of which also contain formalin. Here is what I used: NT LABS Marine Anti-parasite (https://www.nt-labs.com/browse-products/indoor/marine/anti-parasite/). It sucks that they add the formalin because if for any reason a water change is needed, there's no way to bring copper level back up without overdosing the formalin

 

[MnFish1]

No problem to put fish back in QT setup. One issue that we have here in Ireland is that Coppersafe is not available. It's really hard to get. UK / EU same. When I was dealing with velvet outbreak in Feb I had to source alternative mediations for copper, all of which also contain formalin. Here is what I used: NT LABS Marine Anti-parasite (https://www.nt-labs.com/browse-products/indoor/marine/anti-parasite/). It sucks that they add the formalin because if for any reason a water change is needed, there's no way to bring copper level back up without overdosing the formalin

I would dose the medication per the instructions. I don't see any recommendation for checking copper levels with this product. If you follow the instructions, I don't see how you can 'overdose' the formalin. In the instructions, it specifically mentions:
"Q: I’m halfway through a course of treatment and my water needs changing, what should I do?

A: If you’re halfway through a course of treatment, but have discovered a serious water quality issue, water changes will clearly dilute any medications present. However, in these situations, carrying out water changes and addressing the water quality issue is almost always the correct course of action; you can always restart the course of treatment once you have the water quality back to where it should be."

But let's say you have a 10 gallon tank - appropriately dosed with this product, you remove 5 gallons and you're planning to add back 5 new gallons. You simply dose the 5 gallons you're replacing to the same level as recommended in the product instructions and add it back to the tank - thus - the concentrations of the medication remain therapeutic. Since (as far as I can find when I looked at this previously and again today) copper levels are not recommended, I'm not sure how effective this treatment is/will be.

 

[SweaterVest]

I would dose the medication per the instructions. I don't see any recommendation for checking copper levels with this product. If you follow the instructions, I don't see how you can 'overdose' the formalin. In the instructions, it specifically mentions:
"Q: I’m halfway through a course of treatment and my water needs changing, what should I do?

A: If you’re halfway through a course of treatment, but have discovered a serious water quality issue, water changes will clearly dilute any medications present. However, in these situations, carrying out water changes and addressing the water quality issue is almost always the correct course of action; you can always restart the course of treatment once you have the water quality back to where it should be."

But let's say you have a 10 gallon tank - appropriately dosed with this product, you remove 5 gallons and you're planning to add back 5 new gallons. You simply dose the 5 gallons you're replacing to the same level as recommended in the product instructions and add it back to the tank - thus - the concentrations of the medication remain therapeutic. Since (as far as I can find when I looked at this previously and again today) copper levels are not recommended, I'm not sure how effective this treatment is/will be.

Yes, from my experience the chelated copper in the NT labs product is secondary to the formalin. Achieving a therapeutic level of 2.0 ppm copper is not achievable from my experience, again limited by the level of formalin present. It seems a decent product, but does not really integrate perfectly with the QT methods available here, or or on Humblefish etc.

 

[SweaterVest]

Update -- I noticed the Midas Blenny and Royal Gramma flashing (video below). The yellow eye tang still flashes occasionally.

All the fish seem a little bit unsettled. Restless. I'll try to get them all in the QT tonight / tomorrow. Some are easier to catch than others.