Hawaii SB1240 Could Devastate Fishery

[stunreefer]

4) I don't see anything prohibiting multiple divers such as a partner diver. Why was that claim made?

Going off the article published by Pyle, Randall, Carlson posted on the first page this is still a concern, however, I have reached out to see if it is still in the bill.

Received response from authors of the linked article:

'...it was requested by the collectors to be added to our editorial, and followed up with: “If no new permits can be issued, then as divers drop out no new people can be added leaving each company with fewer and fewer people and eventually with no safety divers. That I believe is the crux of the concern.”'

 

[stunreefer]

Me not buying a fish will do nothing to stop it

Every time a fish is purchased, a store/vendor owner says, 'This fish sold, it was a good purchase by me, I'll bring in another one.' This trickles all the way down to the collector.

This is something I talk with hobbyists about a lot, do not purchase ailing animals from a vendor thinking you're helping the situation. If the vendor does not change their ways, people stop buying, and eventually, they stop selling.

 

[tj w]

I understand both sides to this proposed legislature. I think it would be more beneficial if we as hobbyist would come together on these issues rather than try and point out all the negatives. We're all here because we love the saltwater aquarium hobby.

 

[carlson]

Maybe the solution to correct a few issues that we seem to be throwing around here isn't to limit the collection, go ahead and allow it; but put a $10 (or more, maybe much more, say $50) per fish tariff on exported fish from Hawaii. Better yet, put that in as an import tariff to the US on all wild caught fish sold to the hobby and invest the proceeds into every place that aquarium fish are collected; habitat, better collection methods, cyanide testing, etc.. Make sure there is no tariff on aquacultured livestock, allowing them to finally have a price advantage and profits to help them open more breeding programs and increase business opportunities in aquaculture. Let's face it, the reason that we don't have more aquaculture now isn't that it's not more ethical, it's that aquacultured fish are typically more expensive, and the average buyer doesn't want to spend a few dollars more for the aquacultured variety. Every shop owner I know says the same thing, when I ask for the aquacultured fish they will often tell me that they don't get them in very often since if they put them side by side and there is more than a couple dollar difference in price, nobody buys the aquacultured. I'd also propose that as soon as any species has been proven to be able to be aquacultured that the species is then closed for wild collection and sale as soon as it's possible to aquaculture in a decent quantity. Doing these thing would really push this hobby to something sustainable and capable of being around in the future.

Look at how it's happened with Clownfish, the craze over the past few years for strange variants has all but negated the high volume sale of wild caught fish as there aren't any wild caught "lighting, snowflake, etc." variants. So you say this will raise the price at the local aquarium store, yes it will, and it's intended to do just that. As a long term hobbyist (over 30 years) I have to agree with on a few comments here, as the hobby has become more popular the situation hasn't got better, it's getting worst with unethical stores popping up all over. I remember when I got into this hobby in the 80s I was grilled by a store owner (one of only two saltwater stores in a city of half a million, now there are half a dozen, many coming and going on a regular basis) before I could buy anything, they refused to sell me a fish until I could describe the setup I had, all the livestock, how long it has been running, how I was going to deal with a new fish, introduce it to my tank, etc. My personal observations (so no facts to back this up, just 30+ years of being in the hobby) are that there are generally two types of saltwater fish (reef) keepers, those who are in it the long haul, and typically have fish (corals, etc.) for a long time, often decades, and often the same specimens. And then you have the short timers, who are in it a few years at most. And unfortunately not that many make the jump to long term. Look at all the equipment being sold after a few years, and it's not all from upgrades, many I see are those who burn out, i.e. are tired of paying for livestock they kill off. The problem is these people are kept in the hobby too long because the cost of killing fish (or coral) isn't that great compared to the cost of the rest of their system. So they drop anywhere from hundreds to thousands on a tank setup, and then begin to kill off livestock without feeling too much of a financial burden because livestock is cheap. Think of it, I can buy many fish for well under $100 each, often under $30. Someone kills a $30 fish, they go buy another, and another... If they (or I) killed off a $100 fish, or a $200 fish, they think twice as to why it died, and maybe would spend more time looking to correct the problem before throwing more fish in their tank. But the reality is the sales volume in this industry is built on bringing people into the hobby, and in some respect churning them back out so you can get some new people willing to spend a few hundreds/thousands before giving up and moving on. In general I'm probably not speaking to those on this thread, you are actually taking time to get on a web site that congregates people who do care and want to have great tanks and share their experiences. But I can't believe that all aquarists are this way; think of the numbers we are talking about just out of Hawaii, 300,00 to 500,000 Yellow Tangs alone each year, with a majority of those coming to the US. In 2010 the estimate was there were maybe 700,000 saltwater tanks in the US, so even if that number has increased some that's still a small number compared to the number of fish being imported. What is the average lifespan of a Yellow Tang in a tank, I had a Yellow Tang that lived for 8 years before I gave it away when I moved and couldn't see trying to move a large fish like that. I have one now that is a couple years old, along with a few other fish all at least 3 years old from when I moved last. I have a Percula Clown that is now 24+ years old, it came with my original used tank I bought and I've had it 24 years now. I kept it through three moves, including one that was 125 miles as I couldn't part with a fish I'd had that long. So if people were really keeping their fish healthy for many years, we wouldn't need half of the fish collected today would we? So why not put incentives in for broader aquaculture, and make it to where everyone will think twice before churning through fish after fish.

That's what more lfs owners and online stores should do

 

[lion king]

Every time a fish is purchased, a store/vendor owner says, 'This fish sold, it was a good purchase by me, I'll bring in another one.' This trickles all the way down to the collector.

This is something I talk with hobbyists about a lot, do not purchase ailing animals from a vendor thinking you're helping the situation. If the vendor does not change their ways, people stop buying, and eventually, they stop selling.

True it affects the individual store or vendor, but it will not stop the machine. The constant flow will not stop because you don't purchase a fish. It has to stopped at the other end. The point is changing the standards from collection to the lfs, Limiting amounts and species, a standard of ways they are collected and housed. A standard in shipment, housing a the wholesaler; same at the lfs. A standard and way to document losses, and a $fine or shut down any part of the machine. There is no way 1 of 7 or more lfs in a city of less than 2 mil is selling 50 yellow tangs a month to adequate tanks and responsible hobbyist. That's just one example, on any given day I can count clownfish in the hundreds if not a thousand citywide.

This would increase the price, and that's fine since it will weed out the disposable mentality. Most people seem to value everything with the $, even life. I wouldn't even be opposed to the hobbyists needing a permit, again we are talking about a living being.

 

[carlson]

True it affects the individual store or vendor, but it will not stop the machine. The constant flow will not stop because you don't purchase a fish. It has to stopped at the other end. The point is changing the standards from collection to the lfs, Limiting amounts and species, a standard of ways they are collected and housed. A standard in shipment, housing a the wholesaler; same at the lfs. A standard and way to document losses, and a $fine or shut down any part of the machine. There is no way 1 of 7 or more lfs in a city of less than 2 mil is selling 50 yellow tangs a month to adequate tanks and responsible hobbyist. That's just one example, on any given day I can count clownfish in the hundreds if not a thousand citywide.

This would increase the price, and that's fine since it will weed out the disposable mentality. Most people seem to value everything with the $, even life. I wouldn't even be opposed to the hobbyists needing a permit, again we are talking about a living being.

That's the type of assertive attitude we all need to have. With higher standards, there would be less fish deaths from shipping whole salers, collectors, and hobbiest, which would also result in a greater respect for the aquarium hobby. I believe the first step in changing something like this would be to educate more people interested in the reefing hobby which would naturally result in less fish death in home aquariums, and less need for purchasing mass quantities of marine life for local fish stores. Businesses would lose money on this, but they could focus more on selling equipment to keep aquariums healthy long term.[emoji106]

 

[Slickwill613]

I've liked a few posts so far.

I can just not understand the viewpoint of those against this! Bring all the straw men you want, food fishing is so bad, but I bet you've been to a trendy sushi restaurant! I'm not a HI resident, and I'm not gonna send the governor of a state I DONT EVEN LIVE IN a letter or email or whatever. Even if it does drive upnthe price of a yellow tang!, guess what, more incentive to captive breed and sell more, bringing the price back down.

 

[N4sty T4te]

It says new permits can be issued based on sustainability.

You guys are missing the point, there is currently NO REGULATION on aquarium trade collection. So it's not a problem now, Sure. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be later.

Someone showed spearing fish, no way Hawaii doesn't regulate its fishing industry.

 

[Falk]

You guys are missing the point, there is currently NO REGULATION on aquarium trade collection. So it's not a problem now, Sure. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be later.

Fake news lol there are certainly regulations in place that effect aquarium trade.

 

[Peng]

I'm interested to know how you feel about the slaughter of these species for food ... which would seem to make the ornamental trade pretty insignificant.

What my opinion is on that issue doesn't matter. The people of Hawaii do not want to have their fish bagged and shipped to mainland trapped in our ornamental aquariums regardless whether the population is decreasing or not.

 

[Nick James]

The world is going to hell in a hand basket...

Soon you won't be able to breathe outside because self interest groups believe your stealing air from the birds.. want data to prove it? 50% of birds are flying lower this season, based on their observations.

sorry to go off topic.. but watch the beginning of the movie Idiocracy. Horrible movie but it sums up where we are heading.

 

[N4sty T4te]

Fake news lol there are certainly regulations in place that effect aquarium trade.

I'm sure there are. but apparently not in terms of numbers collected and sustainability. Which is what the law pertains to. So therefore there is currently No Regulation for the topic at hand.

What if all the sudden the market for these fish went up 100 fold. Where would that leave the ecosystem without any form of regulation in regards to sustainability.

So it isn't fake news. All of this information is in the OP's first message. Just have to read the actual words on the bill.

 

[Falk]

What my opinion is on that issue doesn't matter. The people of Hawaii do not want to have their fish bagged and shipped to mainland trapped in our ornamental aquariums regardless whether the population is decreasing or not.

was this passed on a referendum? If not its more probably based on lobbyist and people against the aquarium trade. i hope the people on Hawaii aren't using any wood or crops from the mainland. No one likes anything leaving but unless it's causing a problem it shouldn't be stopped.

 

[Falk]

I'm sure there are. but apparently not in terms of numbers collected and sustainability. Which is what the law pertains to. So therefore there is currently No Regulation for the topic at hand.

What if all the sudden the market for these fish went up 100 fold. Where would that leave the ecosystem without any form of regulation in regards to sustainability.

So it isn't fake news. All of this information is in the OP's first message. Just have to read the actual words on the bill.

I don't care if they pass it but I have read the bill and read laws, regulations and bills for a living and if you think what they put in there is 100% true you don't know politics

 

[N4sty T4te]

The world is going to hell in a hand basket...

Soon you won't be able to breathe outside because self interest groups believe your stealing air from the birds.. want data to prove it? 50% of birds are flying lower this season, based on their observations.

sorry to go off topic.. but watch the beginning of the movie Idiocracy. Horrible movie but it sums up where we are heading.

I'd parrallel this with an oil well. We as a species have a natural tendency to deplete an area of its resources without checks and balances being in place.

The market up to this point has been self-regulated by the collectors themselves. Just so we are clear self regulated industries with competition and limited resources aren't a recipe for success.

 

[N4sty T4te]

I don't care if they pass it but I have read the bill and read laws, regulations and bills for a living and if you think what they put in there is 100% true you don't know politics

Obviously. This is a bill that says they have to come up with the "unsaid" info by 2019.

I'm sure they left the part out where a Chinese investor bought one of the collection companies and is now cutting the fins off as many yellow tangs as they can find to make soup. (Sarcasm)

 

[Falk]

I'd parrallel this with an oil well. We as a species have a natural tendency to deplete an area of its resources without checks and balances being in place.

The market up to this point has been self-regulated by the collectors themselves. Just so we are clear self regulated industries with competition and limited resources aren't a recipe for success.

This isn't completely true there are massive areas in Hawaii were collection cannot take place. These areas are major breeding grounds. Those are major regulations that keep the region from being depleted.

 

[Falk]

"I'm sure they left the part out where a Chinese investor bought one of the collection companies and is now cutting the fins off as many yellow tangs as they can find to make soup. (Sarcasm)"

They left out the part that some organization like PETA probably made massive donations to the bills sponsor.

 

[N4sty T4te]

This isn't completely true there are massive areas in Hawaii were collection cannot take place. These areas are major breeding grounds. Those are major regulations that keep the region from being depleted.

It's actually only one area in all of Hawaii that can be collected from.

Still doesn't mean that area can't be depleted. And again the idea is to keep the fishery sustainable.

 

[N4sty T4te]

"I'm sure they left the part out where a Chinese investor bought one of the collection companies and is now cutting the fins off as many yellow tangs as they can find to make soup. (Sarcasm)"

They left out the part that some organization like PETA probably made massive donations to the bills sponsor.

Their tourism industry is worth 800,000,000 in annual revenue. Their aquarium trade industry is worth 3,200,000 in annual revenue.

Them doing everything they can to ensure their reefs are protected is more valuable than any contribution from any organization.