Hawaii SB1240 Could Devastate Fishery

[Maritimer]

I'm seeing some pretty spirited debate here, but there's something I just don't quite get.

This bill - and other efforts of its ilk - are being promoted by a well-organized group of people who are _determined_ to end the marine fish keeping hobby (along with reptiles, freshwater fish, bird-keeping, and in all probability, the keeping of dogs, cats, pigs and chickens). Why are so many of us, rather than mounting up to take on the enemy who threatens us all, choosing to debate whether the end of this hobby is, in fact, the best goal?

Does our hobby impact the very environments we love? Of course it does.

Is there a lot of work to be done in ensuring that the creatures whose beauty captivates us get the best opportunity to live long, healthy lives in our care? Absolutely.

From the collectors through the jobbers, the wholesalers and retailers to the hobbyist sharing the love of the natural world with his growing children, we _all_ have room for improvement.

If the folks promoting this new clampdown on the few collectors in the relatively small territories they have available in Hawai'i get their way, the only fish in any of our tanks in 5-10 years will be Crassius auratus - and ten years after that, they'll be plastic.

For myself, I will take every opportunity to learn how to better care for the fishes, corals and other creatures in my home, every opportunity to help educate others who wish to do the same - and every opportunity to ensure that all of our aquatic experiences remain undiminished.

~Bruce

 

[fishdoctor]

Done, both petitions signed.
Let's turn the tide on the misinformation and keep the facts central on this issue. As such more data is needed to make responsible decisions. I encourage organizations such as reef.org and reefcheck.org to help to provide quantitative data for future decisions on wildlife and habitat protection. Thank you Austin for sharing and getting the ball rolling with the reef 2 reef community. Happy Reefing everyone.

 

[fin mike]

the only fish in any of our tanks in 5-10 years will be Crassius auratus - and ten years after that, they'll be plastic.

SAVE THE GOLDFISH!

 

[Neal Korlak]

Hello fellow Ree2Reef members,

As some of you may know, there has been a big pushback on the collection of fishes from Hawaii for many years now. Legislation has been written to fully close down the Hawaii fishery (meaning no more Hawaiin fish collection), greatly limit the Hawaiian fishery, and everything in between. Every time the bill's have not passed, until now.

Hawaii SB1240 has passed the House and Senate, now awaiting Governor Ige's signature.

The bill was amended several times prior to passing, however, if enacted would cripple one of the best-managed fisheries in the world.

This bill would quickly lead to Hawaii fishes having astronomical cost increases, although most concerning is overlooking the comprehensive data collected over the years proving how incredibly sustainable the fishery is, which could pave the way for this to happen to other fisheries.

We must encourage Governor Ige to veto this bill.

Click here to show Governor Ige we want this bill vetoed. (most important route)

Click here to sign another petition to veto this bill.

Still not sure?

The above article was published in the Honolulu Star-Advertiser May 31st, 2017. It was penned by three of the most knowledgeable people in the fish world, Dr. Richard Pyle, Dr. John (Jack) Randall, and Dr. Bruce Carlson.

This video by Dr. Bruce Calson is an in-depth look on the sustainable Hawaiian fishery. Definitely worth your time!


The following screenshot was taken from Dr. Luiz Rocha's 2017 MACNA presentation. In this slide, he walks us through how small the range of open collection for the yellow tang is, and how little impact collection has had over the years. Click here to see the presentation in full.

From Dr. Rocha's presentation, "No reason whatsoever, if you think of pure data, to consider that any of those aquarium fisheries in Hawaii are threatening any population."

Dr. Rocha also mentions there is no regulation on spearing these same fishes from the reef in Hawaii. You can spear thousands of tangs in a few minutes with no concern.

We have data from other fisheries showing how much more money a fisherman can earn catching live animals for the aquarium trade versus the food trade. Of course, this means considerably fewer fishes would be caught by a given fisherman to earn the same amount of money to care for their family, leaving more animals on the reef. Source

Please act now and support vetoing this bill by clicking here and here.

I usually do not que in on these.. however.. and I'm sure to get flack for it..

I have watched and watched this hobby/our pride take wings and grow to something amazing..!!

My question is.. Why do we have to pay the price now and have been for greed.. because that's what this is.. greed..

The technology has come around and bit ALL of us in the a**.. we have folks going out and buying thousands of dollars worth of equipment and fish/corals with zero knowledge.. I have been in and out of the hobby for well over 20+yrs and I research.. a lot.. So why do I have to pay the price for the poor decisions of others..

Who is buying all of these fish?? Where is the demand??
And really?? Is this a surprise to everyone??
I could go on about fishing trollers and whaling.. but that might come off as wrong.. oh and let's not forget about the carp, oscars and goldfish that are released everyday..
It has come to this point that the government has to step in which in my opinion is a good thing as the day and age of throwing everything away that serves no more purpose to these "folks" in question..

Back to 20yrs ago.. you walked into a saltwater store and you where quizzed and a lot of the time you walked out empty handed as the arrogant fish store help would not allow certain coral or fish to be sold as they knew that you would be back with a dead fish in 2 weeks after they spent months of feeding and loving the fish.. which to me.. is what I miss the most..

So this is a good thing..

 

[Falk]

I usually do not que in on these.. however.. and I'm sure to get flack for it..

I have watched and watched this hobby/our pride take wings and grow to something amazing..!!

My question is.. Why do we have to pay the price now and have been for greed.. because that's what this is.. greed..

The technology has come around and bit ALL of us in the a**.. we have folks going out and buying thousands of dollars worth of equipment and fish/corals with zero knowledge.. I have been in and out of the hobby for well over 20+yrs and I research.. a lot.. So why do I have to pay the price for the poor decisions of others..

Who is buying all of these fish?? Where is the demand??
And really?? Is this a surprise to everyone??
I could go on about fishing trollers and whaling.. but that might come off as wrong.. oh and let's not forget about the carp, oscars and goldfish that are released everyday..
It has come to this point that the government has to step in which in my opinion is a good thing as the day and age of throwing everything away that serves no more purpose to these "folks" in question..

Back to 20yrs ago.. you walked into a saltwater store and you where quizzed and a lot of the time you walked out empty handed as the arrogant fish store help would not allow certain coral or fish to be sold as they knew that you would be back with a dead fish in 2 weeks after they spent months of feeding and loving the fish.. which to me.. is what I miss the most..

So this is a good thing..

What is good about this regulation? There is no evidence of the fish being depleted because of aquarium trade in Hawaii. One new costal resort being built will have a much greater effect on the reefs than the aquarium tade ever will. So they blame the problem on something that isn't actually causing the problems to overlook real issues.

 

[N4sty T4te]

"And the sustainability is what the size limits and collextion areas protect. They protect the mature, breeding size specimens that replenish the reefs"

If they capture every Yellow Tang between 2-4.5" on a continuous basis. Eventually all of the adult breeding specimens die off. And the ones less than 2" grow to a size that can be caught.

It's not 100% guaranteed to be sustainable without a quota.

Furthermore their motivation in further regulation is to counteract the effects of coral bleaching, as tangs are beneficial to the recovery process during bleaching events. Without an appropriate habitat the fish population again.... is not sustainable.

Lastly, with defining a "collection area" Tang usually travel in shoals and graze on whatever they find. Constantly on the move. I'd be interested in any info on how far a shoal can travel grazing Because that would make setting a certain area up for collection effect the entire population.

My understanding was their main motivation in making "collection areas" was to keep it away from tourists that are diving, or snorkeling.

 

[furam28]

What about captive breeding? Would you agree that if Hawaii banned Yellow tang collection tomorrow, people would switch to buying captive-bred yellow tangs right away and there would be a lot more facilities breeding them within a short time? Same with Blue Hippo tangs which are also being successfully captive-bred. If there were stricter regulations and quotas on wild-caught fishes, there would be a much stronger incentive to captive breed, which should be the ultimate direction for this hobby.

If the folks promoting this new clampdown on the few collectors in the relatively small territories they have available in Hawai'i get their way, the only fish in any of our tanks in 5-10 years will be Crassius auratus - and ten years after that, they'll be plastic.

~Bruce

 

[A Toadstool Leather]

Why is it that you think captive breeding is a solution? When looking at statistics in the Hawaiian fisheries it is sustainable there, and these practices should be spread to other locations.

A much greater threat to reefs and the fishes there is commercial food fishing. If ornamental fish collecters are no longer supported, they go from ornamental fishing to commercial fishing, which is far worse. So if you carr about the reefs you will whole heartedly support sustainable fisheries rather than captive breeding.

Captive breeding has an important role, but it is not a panacea.

I support sustainable fisheries but you cannot deny how helpful captive breeding has been for many species such as sea horses .Commercial fishing could be sustainable too, but many factors such as destructive methods (bottom trawling comes to mind here) prevent this. I feel like people write off the hawaii fishery due to the terrible things they have heard about other less regulated ones.

 

[ycnibrc]

Wow if we all passionate about human as much as for the fish this world will be in a much better place. How come no body cry about killing lion fish or the Chinese carb or the snake head. If u want humane and ethnical then don't choose which species to protect.

 

[eatbreakfast]

"And the sustainability is what the size limits and collextion areas protect. They protect the mature, breeding size specimens that replenish the reefs"

If they capture every Yellow Tang between 2-4.5" on a continuous basis. Eventually all of the adult breeding specimens die off. And the ones less than 2" grow to a size that can be caught.

Not true. Since collection areas are limited to a few very limited islamds or sides of islands, you could take every single tang of the allowed size(which is not what is happening), and due to tth nature of how tangs spawn, releasing their eggs in enormous quantities, which are thendispersefd by currents, the island where collection is allowed will constantly be resettled by progeny from islands where fishing is not permitted.

 

[Maritimer]

What about captive breeding? Would you agree that if Hawaii banned Yellow tang collection tomorrow, people would switch to buying captive-bred yellow tangs right away and there would be a lot more facilities breeding them within a short time? Same with Blue Hippo tangs which are also being successfully captive-bred. If there were stricter regulations and quotas on wild-caught fishes, there would be a much stronger incentive to captive breed, which should be the ultimate direction for this hobby.

Captive breeding is a giant step in a very good direction - but it's in its infancy, and in no way is the captive breeding of marine fishes ready to take on the current demand. It's going to take more than a couple of years, I think, for the production of most marine ornamental fish to catch up with demand - or even come close.

Additionally, please keep in mind that while some of the folks pushing this agenda (the dive and tour operators) simply have as their goal getting collectors to stop taking fish off of reefs so that they (tour operators) can gain more profit by taking people out in boats to step on corals and shed sunscreen into the sea, the "Animal Rights" groups have a different goal in mind. For some of these folks, the goal is nothing less than the elimination of _all_ animal keeping by anyone for any reason. Zoos? Farms? Horse shows? Your pet gecko or parrot? Medical research? Dogs? Cats? Yep. All of it. They come for the easy ones first - we're a small group with few supporters who aren't fishkeepers. We're easy. These folks are organized, determined and have very deep pockets. The TV commercials and Facebook videos with the sad puppies don't funnel money to shelters; they funnel money - and lots of it - to lawyers and lobbyists. These guys mean business, they'll keep coming, and they have the resources to do it.

Wow if we all passionate about human as much as for the fish this world will be in a much better place. How come no body cry about killing lion fish or the Chinese carb or the snake head. If u want humane and ethnical then don't choose which species to protect.

The fish under discussion in Hawai'i are in the part of the ocean they belong in; the reefs they evolved on and in partnership with. The Chinese carp, snakeheads and lionfish that folks are rightfully concerned about are in a part of the world where they did not evolve - and that part of the world didn't evolve around them. Add lionfish to a Caribbean reef, and the populations of any fish small enough to fit into the mouth of a lionfish will drop dramatically, while the population of lionfish explodes until they've pretty much eaten everything they can swallow. By keeping lionfish on the reefs around Florida, we would lose a great diversity of the native Floridian fishes. I'm sure we've all seen videos of wrecks and reefs that've become a finned monoculture - nothing but the fluttering fans of lionfish fins, as far as the eye can see, but nearly devoid of all the life that _should_ have been there. I'm all for protecting lionfish on the reefs of the Indo-Pacific regions where they're from. Snakeheads in Asia are a beautiful and fascinating part of that ecosystem. Snakeheads in the Potomac ... could become a problem.

In my part of the word, we once had beautiful birds which were brilliant blue above, and bright brick red below - they looked as though a bit of the sky was flitting across a field. Some folks who deeply loved the works of William Shakespeare determined that North America was a poorer place for not having every bird mentioned by the Bard, and so introduced English weaver finches and starlings. It's been a lot of years since I've seen a bluebird, because those English birds have taken over all the nest sites the bluebirds could have been using.

It's not the lives of each and every individual that I worry about, but sensible and sustainable use of the environment and natural resources. The current aquarium fishery in Hawai'i is among the best and most sustainable in the world, and rather than being attacked, ought to be held up as a shining example of how it _should_ be done.

~Bruce

 

[hart24601]

I am not a fan of this ban. I support sustainable management of natural resources based off data. I view the fish collected for this hobby the same way I see collection of fish for fishing and eating them or otherwise harvesting. Once they the individuals are removed from the wild, they are gone. It's a numbers game. While I sure do not like to see them suffer and die once removed from the perspective of sustainability of the fishery it doesn't matter after collection. Fish suffer when I catch and eat them too. If the total collected number is what the fishery can support then great, if not then lower the amount collected. If a species can not be sustainably collected for any purpose then do not allow it to be collected. Hawaii has fantastic data on it's management as should be an example to other fisheries, not banned and ignore its data. At that point why bother even collecting data?

If a sustainable relations exists with a natural resource (lumber, fish, whatever) IMO it should be managed and used. The reality of our would is people have to eat and to do that they need to make money. Yep, the world is a hard place. Ideally I would love to ban everything that impacts nature, but that isn't the world we live in. Conservation is effective when we can provide a financial incentive for the protection of said resource, in this case be it collection, snorkeling, fishing or other means. Only if there is good data and evaluation of sustainability. Hawaii should be an example world-wide of how good management can be a boon all around and perhaps influence poorly managed fisheries to better regulate because it's possible to have that balance.

 

[Gil03]

Nobody is denying that there are losses, but there is a huge gap between 30% and 90% and relying on anecdote to arrive at that 90%.

Gap or not, we're part of the problem as well...pointing the finger at someone else for the bad their doing while we sign the death warrants of live stock for our own pleasure is being a bit hypocritical. Also, I imagine the sustainability data that you speak of will not be the same as this hobby grows in popularity.

 

[taylorjonl]

Additionally, please keep in mind that while some of the folks pushing this agenda (the dive and tour operators) simply have as their goal getting collectors to stop taking fish off of reefs so that they (tour operators) can gain more profit by taking people out in boats to step on corals and shed sunscreen into the sea, the "Animal Rights" groups have a different goal in mind. For some of these folks, the goal is nothing less than the elimination of _all_ animal keeping by anyone for any reason. Zoos? Farms? Horse shows? Your pet gecko or parrot? Medical research? Dogs? Cats? Yep. All of it. They come for the easy ones first - we're a small group with few supporters who aren't fishkeepers. We're easy. These folks are organized, determined and have very deep pockets. The TV commercials and Facebook videos with the sad puppies don't funnel money to shelters; they funnel money - and lots of it - to lawyers and lobbyists. These guys mean business, they'll keep coming, and they have the resources to do it.

This is what I don't get, if we were not allowed to keep Dogs/Cats as pets, do these people think we would just let them run wild? No, we would kill them. Who wants wild dogs roaming the neighborhood? For most dogs in captivity it is more of a partnership with the owner, they are well cared for and probably have a better quality of living than in the wild. There are laws to ensure they are treated humanely.

Now for most fish, I would say this is the opposite. There aren't any laws to ensure you treat your fish humanely. When I hear the numbers of these fish being sold in the US per year it is scary. To me these numbers mean a large percentage of these fish are dying within the first year.

I didn't sign the veto not because I agree with the law, I didn't do it because I don't live in Hawaii and I don't believe a signature from Joe Shmoe in Utah is going to mean anything to the representatives in Hawaii. I am an engineer by day and nothing infuriates me more than when my non-technical bosses make decisions contrary to the engineers recommendations, I believe they should listen to the scientists and if the scientists say it is sustainable they should trust the experts. All this law is going to do is push the demand up and since the supply will come from someplace it is going to come from reefs that are less protected and well managed.

As far as captive breeding goes, it is great and I think we need to keep improving the system but at this time it isn't as efficient and has a higher carbon footprint than collecting specimens from the ocean. From my perspective we should have laws that ensure when the animals are taken that it is done in a safe and environmentally friendly way for the fish and the reef.

 

[hart24601]

It seems like there are quite a few issues here:

1. Sustainability of collecting fish - can the fishery support the current collection limits
2. Treatment of fish after collection by distributors (LFS)
3. Treatment of fish by hobbyists
4. Captive breeding
5. Ethics of keeping aquarium fish at all
6. Long term environmental impact - outside of collection numbers, aka pollution from boats, chemical capture
7. Hawaiian collection vs non US wild collection - numbers and techniques


From what I can tell this bill only deals with #1. The other issues are concerns of course, but seem outside the scope of the bill. The other reasons sure influence peoples reactions to the bill, like #5 - Ethics of keeping fish at all, where many are just opposed to any fish kept in any tank, but IMO that shouldn't influence sustainability determinations. But that is just me.

As for captive breeding efforts, yes that would be great, but one can't just assume it will happen. It's equally likely the time to develop methods and the costs vs profit will realistically just mean that species is no longer available to the hobby. We also do not know the total environmental cost of this possible effort, sure less fish from the wild, but what about the secondary environmental impact (#6) with building breeding tanks, harvesting food, discharging waste - it may or may not be significant but is something to consider. I don't really care about yellow tangs, never had one and I don't really like them, but to potentially eliminate them from the hobby when it appears they are sustainable doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Gap or not, we're part of the problem as well...pointing the finger at someone else for the bad their doing while we sign the death warrants of live stock for our own pleasure is being a bit hypocritical. Also, I imagine the sustainability data that you speak of will not be the same as this hobby grows in popularity.

Gap or not, we're part of the problem as well...pointing the finger at someone else for the bad their doing while we sign the death warrants of live stock for our own pleasure is being a bit hypocritical. Also, I imagine the sustainability data that you speak of will not be the same as this hobby grows in popularity.

Yoy could ban the entire hobby and this will have almost zero affect on what is happening to reefs and fish stocks in the oceans. The numbers of fish collected as ornamentals seems huge, but in reality is miniscule.

The number of Achilles tangs in the cooler to be offered as food is far greater than the amounts found at any Aquarium wholesaler.

The percentages work is that it isn't greatly affected by the number of people in the hobby. Percentages are percentages.

 

[klp]

I usually do not que in on these.. however.. and I'm sure to get flack for it..

I have watched and watched this hobby/our pride take wings and grow to something amazing..!!

My question is.. Why do we have to pay the price now and have been for greed.. because that's what this is.. greed..

The technology has come around and bit ALL of us in the a**.. we have folks going out and buying thousands of dollars worth of equipment and fish/corals with zero knowledge.. I have been in and out of the hobby for well over 20+yrs and I research.. a lot.. So why do I have to pay the price for the poor decisions of others..

Who is buying all of these fish?? Where is the demand??
And really?? Is this a surprise to everyone??
I could go on about fishing trollers and whaling.. but that might come off as wrong.. oh and let's not forget about the carp, oscars and goldfish that are released everyday..
It has come to this point that the government has to step in which in my opinion is a good thing as the day and age of throwing everything away that serves no more purpose to these "folks" in question..

Back to 20yrs ago.. you walked into a saltwater store and you where quizzed and a lot of the time you walked out empty handed as the arrogant fish store help would not allow certain coral or fish to be sold as they knew that you would be back with a dead fish in 2 weeks after they spent months of feeding and loving the fish.. which to me.. is what I miss the most..

So this is a good thing..

Flack. The government is being prodded by animal rights groups that want to: end all hunting and let wolves and bears etc. rip apart animals rather than a clean shot and quick death; ban anything that emits carbon dioxide and go back to a totally agrarian society that could never defend itself in any world now; let the woods remain pristine and ban any human development or use of it; keep the oceans pure by banning whaling, fishing of any type including our hobby fishing. I could go on and on. Remember the snail darter!! It is all about control by the do gooders and they do more harm than the good they espouse. Do not look to government officials to do what is correct based on facts and the best way to go. Look for them to do what it takes to stay in power and portray themselves as better and smarter than you. This is not good and is a first step towards banning our industry "for the greater good" or "for the children" or whatever platitude the so choose. I for one am sick of it. This is not meant to do good just restrict. Whew! Thanks. I... feel.... better... now....

 

[N4sty T4te]

Look, I'm going to just say this as a final note before I exit this converation.

They can captive breed yellow tangs and those cost $100. Tangs live 25+ years in captivity. We can all afford a $100 25+ year fish. Keep it alive and it's no issue. That's longer than a dog lives.

Yellow tangs seem to be the only fish they are really interested in managing.

Which makes sense since it is in such high demand.

This is not the death of the industry, the yellow Tang will still be collected. Sending the governor of Hawaii a bunch of hate mail because you don't want to pay more is going to come across greedy, petty, and irresponsible.

As far as the humanitarian aspect, I think a lot of the practices they utilize to capture and transport fish are unethical, and we end up buying the same fish 4 times because they've basically killed it along the way to our tanks.

It would be better to pay more, have less of an impact on fish populations, and purchase one healthy, well cared for fish.

Truthfully though, I'm in this hobby for the coral, and I only buy aquacultured pieces. So I have less of a vested interest in the fish. I could go all captive bred and be perfectly content.

 

[eatbreakfast]

This is not the death of the industry, the yellow Tang will still be collected. Sending the governor of Hawaii a bunch of hate mail because you don't want to pay more is going to come across greedy, petty, and irresponsible.

It's just signing a petition.

As far as the humanitarian aspect, I think a lot of the practices they utilize to capture and transport fish are unethical, and we end up buying the same fish 4 times because they've basically killed it along the way to our tanks.

Can you provide examples of the unethical capture and transport methods as it relates to Hawaii? And can you provide any evidence of buying the same fish 4x's?

It would be better to pay more, have less of an impact on fish populations, and purchase one healthy, well cared for fish.

How do you account for what the fisherman that collects ornamentals is going to do for work if everyone goes for captive bred fish? Fishermen usually remain fishermen, so going from collecting ornamentals to food fish has a much more deleterious affect on fish populations than collecting ornamentals.

 

[chickofthesea]

Were all in this hobby because we love keeping these animals and corals as pets, but we need to accept the same responsibility for them just as we would for our dogs or other pets.

Unfortunately cats and dogs get out down on purpose and eaten all over the world. We love cats and dogs. Fish don't stand a chance against us humans being inhumane.