Hawaii SB1240 Could Devastate Fishery

[leahfiish]

Thats because this bill is meant to address ornamental fish trade.

But the ornamental fish trade hardly has any impact compared to overfishing for food, habitat loss, pollution, etc. It's a slippery slope, too.

 

[VR28man]

VR28man if you could slightly rewrite that and send it to the governor I think that would give him a good representation of our side. I'm sure he is getting all of the information from the government though all the support against it possible may help

Thanks, I did send him something short which hit the key points - creates an oligarchy, harms Hawaii's aquarists, does nothing really to help the reefs. There's no way he'd read the full one, too long and too impolitic (especially with the typos cuz I was trying to finish it before dinner )

chefjpaul,

I'm fine with limits and the like and more responsible reefkeeping. I'm not fine with regulations imposed by anti-aquarists.....

 

[furam28]

But the ornamental fish trade hardly has any impact compared to overfishing for food, habitat loss, pollution, etc. It's a slippery slope, too.

In a study done last year more than half the fishes sold in LFS here in US (random sampling from different sellers) tested positive for cyanide. Most of these come from Phillipines and Indonesia, where even though its illegal, is still widely practiced. If US enforced Lacy act and testing for cyanide at import, this could be stopped immediately. Use of cyanide has destroyed a lot of the reef ecosystem in those countries.

 

[VR28man]

In a study done last year more than half the fishes sold in LFS here in US (random sampling from different sellers) tested positive for cyanide. Most of these come from Phillipines and Indonesia, where even though its illegal, is still widely practiced. If US enforced Lacy act and testing for cyanide at import, this could be stopped immediately. Use of cyanide has destroyed a lot of the reef ecosystem in those countries.

Interesting. Is a link available?

 

[furam28]

Interesting. Is a link available?

https://www.hakaimagazine.com/article-short/fishing-cyanide

 

[leahfiish]

In a study done last year more than half the fishes sold in LFS here in US (random sampling from different sellers) tested positive for cyanide. Most of these come from Phillipines and Indonesia, where even though its illegal, is still widely practiced. If US enforced Lacy act and testing for cyanide at import, this could be stopped immediately. Use of cyanide has destroyed a lot of the reef ecosystem in those countries.

First off, in no way do I support the use of cyanide to capture any fish. But...
But what does passing this bill do to help combat cyanide fishing...? When Hawaii's fisheries are some of the best in the world, why shut them down? Instead they should be used as a model for others.

Additionally...
According to that link, the cyanide data was collected from a sample for only 89 fish (extremely small sample size), and was partially conducted by an organization called "For the Fishes" which does not support collection of ANY fish captured in the wild. So they are definitely pushing an agenda. I will have to do some more research to see how they collected the cyanide data but I think that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Kmsutows]

In a study done last year more than half the fishes sold in LFS here in US (random sampling from different sellers) tested positive for cyanide. Most of these come from Phillipines and Indonesia, where even though its illegal, is still widely practiced. If US enforced Lacy act and testing for cyanide at import, this could be stopped immediately. Use of cyanide has destroyed a lot of the reef ecosystem in those countries.

Your cyanide argument is more for keeping Hawaiian collection for the trade... you almost said it yourself. . If they stop collection in Hawaii then they will be much more heavily collected from the Philippines and in Indonesia with cyanide. Banned Hawaiian trade = more cyanide collection, period.

 

[leahfiish]

Apparently nobody on the Facebook comments looked at any of the data in this thread.

 

[saltyhog]

They tested 89 fish and surmised that 50% of the fish sold in LFS were captured with cyanide? I don't think I would have quoted that study to support that argument. As noted above, the study obviously wasn't done by an independent/unbiased source.

I dove Kona recently and I can assure you that yellow tangs are still the most abundant fish on the reef. Why would someone in the hobby refuse to accept the studies that were done independently that show the Hawaii fishery to be one of the healthiest around?

 

[Warthur]

Does anyone know when the governor is required to make his decision by?

 

[erk]

Letter sent. The way I see it, the aquarium industry drives a demand to keep these ecosystems in pristine order to ensure these fish will be around for the foreseeable future. Without that demand and subsequent money, there is less incentive to study and preserve. I'm still in awe that Yellow Tangs have been captive bred. I attribute this to the demand from the aquarium industry and from it we have learned more about the reproduction and development cycles of tangs in general. I don't think this would have happened without that demand or economic opportunity.

I would prefer to see this bill rewritten in a manner to help foster greater sustainability efforts. I.e. incentives for sustainable collection. Hopefully then collectors will compete with one another to improve the ecosystem instead of trying to corner the market.

 

[Streetcred]

All the current permits will be grandfathered in and new permits can be issued at a sustainable rate so what are you freaking out about? I've seen enough people with their 60g tanks stacked with ich covered achilles, yellow, and naso tang that I don't necessarily think this new bill is a bad thing from an ethical standpoint.

I'm interested to know how you feel about the slaughter of these species for food ... which would seem to make the ornamental trade pretty insignificant.

 

[Maritimer]

Thats because this bill is meant to address ornamental fish trade. Last I checked Hawaiians don't spear Yellow Tangs for dinner.

They do spear achilles tangs, and in goodly numbers.

Yellow tangs are pretty common on the reef, and $28 at the local reef shop, in spite of collection. Achilles tangs are $200+, when you can find them.

Tell me how aquarium collection is worse for the fish than food collection?

~Bruce, about to send a veto request to the Governor of a state he's never had the opportunity to so much as visit . . .

 

[lion king]

I've been in this hobby for 30 years, I care a great deal about the welfare of our captive animals. Frankly I wish it didn't even exist, I do this best I can to give a home to the fish that are currently in captivity. I struggle with the moral belief that we shouldn't keep these animals in captivity, but it's here and unless it is stopped at the source it will not get better. I've seen the buckets and buckets of dead fish at the wholesalers, and the buckets of dead fish at every lfs around the country. And the diseased, dying, and suffering; I'd say over the last few years half of the fish I got I had to medicate and nurse back to health. The ethics in the hobby today is disgusting compared to what it was when 1st got into the hobby. Shutting this down or limiting it in a way where only the very ethical and dedicated people could be involved, would be a great thing.

 

[leahfiish]

The ethics in the hobby today is disgusting compared to what it was when 1st got into the hobby. Shutting this down or limiting it in a way where only the very ethical and dedicated people could be involved, would be a great thing.

Can you provide a source for that first sentence that can quantity the ethics...?
I agree that some people really don't take care of their pets. But imo promoting Hawaii's sustainable fishing practices goes a longer way towards promoting responsible reef keeping than putting them behind a pay wall. To be honest, the cost of saltwater tanks alone is usually enough to deter the people that don't care,although some do slip through. I think a better way to support ethical fish keeping is to educate people on fish's needs and maintain reasonable expectations about what is required to take care of them. As a hobbyist, you can help this by being chosy about where you buy fish. Lfs that regularly get in those impossible fish or tank busters, or lfs that will sell anything to anyone who wants to buy it (these are not mutually exclusive) might not be the best choice. Even if you're not buying the irresponsible fish, yoi are still supporting the store. Just as an example.

 

[lion king]

Can you provide a source for that first sentence that can quantity the ethics...?
I agree that some people really don't take care of their pets. But imo promoting Hawaii's sustainable fishing practices goes a longer way towards promoting responsible reef keeping than putting them behind a pay wall. To be honest, the cost of saltwater tanks alone is usually enough to deter the people that don't care,although some do slip through. I think a better way to support ethical fish keeping is to educate people on fish's needs and maintain reasonable expectations about what is required to take care of them. As a hobbyist, you can help this by being chosy about where you buy fish. Lfs that regularly get in those impossible fish or tank busters, or lfs that will sell anything to anyone who wants to buy it (these are not mutually exclusive) might not be the best choice. Even if you're not buying the irresponsible fish, yoi are still supporting the store. Just as an example.

Lfs used to run qts in their stores, you could not even bribe them to sell you a fish until it has passed. An lfs would ask you about your setup and tankmates and refuse to sell you a fish that would not work in your environment. If seen an lfs refuse to sell to customers all together when they observed negligent behavior. A lfs would agonize over every sick or dead fish. Lfs would not even carry fish that had such a huge mortality rate that their chances were slim.

Now let's fast forward to today. I see the same lfs get an order or 125 fish, over half of them dead in a bucket within a day aor two; no problem do it again in a couple of weeks. Lfs do not even care your setup or who's in the tank; I've overheard some of the most absurd advice and sales pitches to get the customer out the door with a fish. I've stopped customers from making huge mistakes, like putting a volitan lion in a 50g with small gobies and cryptic wrasses. Nano reef being sold huge blue sponges and sea apples that eventually wipe out their entire reefs. This is so rampant I could hardly even cover even 1% of what I've seen. I started a dwarf lion rescue tank after an owner of lfs that didn't know me give me a sales pitch on a pale dying fuzzy dwarf and telling me he was even eating flake food with gusto. After tracking nearly 20 dwarf lions over the last 3 years, only one lived more than a year; more than half died in the store. I watched lfs pass these guys on to customers that had no idea how to handle their feeding requirements. Disease is absolutely so rampant, there are 2 lfs in town that absolutely nothing they sell lives. I could go on and on...........Beginning hobbyist still rely on their lfs for support and advice; some don't realize that the internet is full of experts. But it still doesn't change the source and the route these fish travel. The issues from the source is huge and i've primarily covered the issues of just the lfs. On the flipside reptile stores and monitored and regulated in such a way that an lfs should be accountable to; each death is logged and a store can be shut down if the standards aren't met. Please don't give me examples of disgusting reptile stores, there's always going to be law breakers; but there are some standards that are the law.

 

[leahfiish]

Lfs used to run qts in their stores, you could not even bribe them to sell you a fish until it has passed. An lfs would ask you about your setup and tankmates and refuse to sell you a fish that would not work in your environment. If seen an lfs refuse to sell to customers all together when they observed negligent behavior. A lfs would agonize over every sick or dead fish. Lfs would not even carry fish that had such a huge mortality rate that their chances were slim.

Now let's fast forward to today. I see the same lfs get an order or 125 fish, over half of them dead in a bucket within a day aor two; no problem do it again in a couple of weeks. Lfs do not even care your setup or who's in the tank; I've overheard some of the most absurd advice and sales pitches to get the customer out the door with a fish. I've stopped customers from making huge mistakes, like putting a volitan lion in a 50g with small gobies and cryptic wrasses. Nano reef being sold huge blue sponges and sea apples that eventually wipe out their entire reefs. This is so rampant I could hardly even cover even 1% of what I've seen. I started a dwarf lion rescue tank after an owner of lfs that didn't know me give me a sales pitch on a pale dying fuzzy dwarf and telling me he was even eating flake food with gusto. After tracking nearly 20 dwarf lions over the last 3 years, only one lived more than a year; more than half died in the store. I watched lfs pass these guys on to customers that had no idea how to handle their feeding requirements. Disease is absolutely so rampant, there are 2 lfs in town that absolutely nothing they sell lives. I could go on and on...........Beginning hobbyist still rely on their lfs for support and advice; some don't realize that the internet is full of experts. But it still doesn't change the source and the route these fish travel.

You are passing off your anecdotal experience as if it's data, and I think you're missing my point. I'm sure that some lfs are as horrible as you describe, but not all of them are. So don't support the ones that have questionable practices, even of that means driving an extra 15 minutes for fish food or salt. Don't support the unethical places even with small purchases. Educate people so they aren't swayed by these sales pitches, so they know the needs of the fish they are buying and how to take care of it. Passing these strict collection regulations will do nothing to prevent irresponsible fish keeping at the hobbyist level.

 

[lion king]

If the collectors, wholesalers, and lfs would just be held to some sort of minimum standard it would go a long way. What would you propose an acceptable % of loss. I would to impose a maximum of 10% loss at an lfs, then we would have 2 lfs here in my town and the rest would be shut down. That would be a good thing in my eye.

 

[furam28]

If we support this hobby we need to be honest about its impact and push for practices and regulations that improve sustainability even if it means higher prices or some species completely banned from import. 20 million fishes are caught for the aquarium hobby every year and more than half are imported in US. There is no mandatory data reporting for import, no mnadatory cyanide testing, no vetting of exporters, no species specific limits. It has become a free for all and a race to the lowest price and highest quantity of sales. That is not sustainable and morally acceptable. How many lfs in your area properly treat the fishes vs how many just wants to make the sale? How many of those sold are going to tanks that are not suitable for those fishes or the owner is poorly rehearsed on husbandry? This is not sustainable. We the hobbyists should be the ones pushing for more accountability in this industry but we havent at all, so now we have activists who have stolen the mic.

 

[leahfiish]

If the collectors, wholesalers, and lfs would just be held to some sort of minimum standard it would go a long way. What would you propose an acceptable % of loss. I would to impose a maximum of 10% loss at an lfs, then we would have 2 lfs here in my town and the rest would be shut down. That would be a good thing in my eye.

Again, this regulation does nothing to hold wholesalers, lfs, hobbyists responsible. The % loss is irrelevant, or, if anything the %loss will be increased if these regulations go through. Because instead of being caught responsibly in Hawaii, they will be collected in even greater numbers from other places that have less sustainable practices like cyanide.