Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

[Max93]

I get what you’re saying about limiting fish pests, but internal parasites and other hitchhikers you get often lay low and don’t show until the fish is at deaths doors.
We will still try to blame the less experienced if something goes wrong, it’s just something you will always find in this any most other hobbies.

The other thing is the time gaps you’re saying, a year is nowhere near enough time to get nice sized colonies. and often people will still get new things even after the fish, it’s just the thing - once a new coral or clam is available and starts to get popular, everyone will want it.

And again, I will restate;
You can not just guess what a fish will and won’t eat in terms of coral. And if you have the fish first, you only risk losing one or two of that coral over when you get the coral first, you risk loosing 5-6 of that same species.
You can be given guidelines but you will never 100% know.

100% agreed.
Above I stated this is all about significantly reducing risk.

if your tank is fallow, chances are there are no fish parasites alive after 90 days.
If you introduce a fully quarantined fish, chances are that’s a clean fish.

the whole point is, to reduce risk to an extreme. We of course don’t know if your new yellow tang is going to attack euphyllia but that is besides the point. The point is, how can we reduce risk - set a strict effort to get all the corals you want. Fill that tank up.

once your tank is thriving, add your clean fish. The point you’re suggesting about we don’t know if a fish is going to eat your new coral is besides the point of the post, but I do hear what you’re saying it just isn’t targeting the point of risk reduction from a pest/disease point of view.

in this topic, I am 100% suggesting you’re not going to add a single coral, inver, clam, anemone, etc. whatever after your quarantined fish are added.
Once you add fish, the only new addition after your fish is yet another clean fish.

had a tank wipe out and all corals died except your fish? Well, I guess now you have to go find quarantined corals.

point is, it is much more difficult to ramp up with fish introduced first.

 

[X-37B]

I get what you’re saying, but for instance - if you add shrimp, don’t get any hawk fish.

it depends on what you keep. I should state and clarify - start your tank with the corals and inverts you want being mindful of the fish you’re going to get in the future. You work around the fish to create a parasite free environment. Hence, don’t get fish that are going to eat your coral and inverts of course.

the sole purpose is to completely eradicate fish parasites, any parasite that needs a fish host to survive. Reduce this risk, and you will avoid significant water chemistry imbalances in the future.

you’re building an environment for your fish, but the environment needs to be there first. Don’t built it while the fish are in it.

moving forward every single tank I start, will be completely fishless until my corals are actually looking great, encrusting, and branching. THEN I will add fish that are 100% quarantined by a reliable source

The hobby needs a new step by step guide, we’re killing too many animals and really discouraging the less experienced, and the ones with a lot of experience alike.

cycle
Corals/inverts
Fallow
Fish
Enjoy

Funny. I have a pixi halwfish in my 45 frag system. Several peppermint shirmp for over 2 yeas and a harlquin. Some hawks are more predatary than others plus they get fed plenty in that system.

 

[Max93]

well said

nobody wants to have the side separate marine holding tank to fallow out every new entrant

so build the entire reef first, quit stocking stuff into it, then fallow it all at once. that delays the instant payoff of fish we can easily provide with skip cycling so I expect .02% of the populous to take this ideal method

they will make use of our instant cycling methods that work perfectly and without any test kits, then fill up Jay's and Humblefish's forums with help me posts. We are a conveyor belt directly to the disease threads

and so is old cycling science, excluding fish disease preps in 100% of its materials as it scares everyone with nitrite and made up ammonia noncompliance.

cycling causes disease by omitting disease talks

Conveyor belt of disease is true… it’s unfortunate. It’s very sad to see so many posts lately of disease… for what? Let’s try to reduce the amount of these posts by introducing a new method.

maybe LFS will start taking deposits to quarantine fish.

 

[i cant think]

100% agreed.
Above I stated this is all about significantly reducing risk.

if your tank is fallow, chances are there are no fish parasites alive after 90 days.
If you introduce a fully quarantined fish, chances are that’s a clean fish.

the whole point is, to reduce risk to an extreme. We of course don’t know if your new yellow tang is going to attack euphyllia but that is besides the point. The point is, how can we reduce risk - set a strict effort to get all the corals you want. Fill that tank up.

once your tank is thriving, add your clean fish. The point you’re suggesting about we don’t know if a fish is going to eat your new coral is besides the point of the post, but I do hear what you’re saying it just isn’t targeting the point of risk reduction from a pest/disease point of view.

in this topic, I am 100% suggesting you’re not going to add a single coral, inver, clam, anemone, etc. whatever after your quarantined fish are added.
Once you add fish, the only new addition after your fish is yet another clean fish.

had a tank wipe out and all corals died except your fish? Well, I guess now you have to go find quarantined corals.

point is, it is much more difficult to ramp up with fish introduced first.

Definitely agree there!
I think from a disease point of view it’s certainly an effective method

But from a coral risk point of view it’s not a great plan.

 

[brandon429]

I am 100% certain that disease preps for fish is 99% of today's cycling for display reefs. All my cycling soapboxes are disease discussions and requests to stop sending me api readings, you're cycled is the answer all entrants get (we are on page 36 of a continual thread and there are no cycles unready in it)

we are all copying methods from one another that carry life on day one, such as bottle bac cycles or moving live rocks from a pet store to home/those are same-day cycles as able as waiting 90 days regarding the ability to process ammonia

I'm aware uncured ocean rocks might have dieoff, but if that's happening none of the crabs mind, the attached corals still open, and I don't know of any seneye-tracked TBS rock receipts to prove even those are leaking ammonia, although if some did that's reasonable to think several oceanic clams and tunicates that might die in a receiving tank could temporarily leak ammonia

if someone isn't dealing in uncured ocean rocks, we have them instantly disregard classic cycling and focus on reading Jays stickies in the disease forum, they're cycled just fine every time. all the planning, worry, purchases and verification need to go right into disease preps not your ammonia, we've been controlling ammonia just fine in reefing all these decades we just never knew it with API at the helm.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

Max93, this is how I start up my smaller tanks. No fish until I’m satisfied that the system has matured. Less about fish disease, more about slowly building resilience, diversity and minimising problem algae. New starts with dry rock are no place for a couple of hungry fat arsed clowns.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Max93, this is how I start up my smaller tanks. No fish until I’m satisfied that the system has matured. Less about fish disease, more about slowly building resilience, diversity and minimising problem algae. New starts with dry rock are no place for a couple of hungry fat arsed clowns.

I’ve placed my tank I bought a few months back on sale on FB. Im still debating whether or not to keep the tank. I really do but i want to focus 100% on my financial goals. I may come back and if I do I want to try this out.

I’m assuming dosing some nitrates and phosphates are essential.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

I don’t dose nitrates or phosphates. Not saying you shouldn’t, it just depends on how your tank is tracking.

 

[brandon429]

as of this second I’m linking this read to a cycling post because this is the right way to reef, in todays day and age and fish sourcing and rock sourcing.

 

[brandon429]

Key takeaway from this thread: avoiding this method isn’t working for the masses.


this way may not seem fun, or ideal to wait as long to begin with fish in your reef tank. most prep literature on the matter focuses on getting fish in your reef in the beginning stages and todays bottle bac quality allows it.

using any other way than this thread covers isn’t working per disease expression rates across all reef boards.

 

[brandon429]

also key in this thread


this thread is not about the OP’s tank, think about that


it’s about best practices for others and what’s repeatable by readers who buy setups from pet stores or big chain pet stores, or get shipped items from pet stores, that now requires a certain order of ops to keep fish alive long term-for the masses-as they source materials. the basic read on tank cycling should be a thread like this, covering what stage fish are added


there is no web board running in reefing that runs based on the procedure of skipping fallow and quarantine steps for the masses, there are only examples of that working in somone‘s home, as their variables present.

skipping qt and fallow isn’t something that works well for the masses, since we now require entire reef boards centered around fallow and quarantine disease control to have any survival chance for mass-bought fish and reef materials.

 

[Max93]

I really like this discussion, thanks for taking the time.

imagine cycling a tank, getting it stable with all the corals and inverts you want. Then all of a sudden adding a nice clean group of fish, fully quarantined. What a breeze that must be.

 

[brandon429]

I used your thread as a reference here

Cycle question.

first BB tank with an NSA aqua scape so I know it’s minimal so I’ve added a large Xport block. I added cleanse and one and only and the ammonia. Tested daily then added the second round of ammonia. Tanks been sitting around 5-6 weeks and using Red Sea still reads ammonia reads 2, nitrites 5 and...

www.reef2reef.com

nice job, great thread meets today's production demands considering the extreme cost of fish

 

[Max93]

I used your thread as a reference here

Cycle question.

first BB tank with an NSA aqua scape so I know it’s minimal so I’ve added a large Xport block. I added cleanse and one and only and the ammonia. Tested daily then added the second round of ammonia. Tanks been sitting around 5-6 weeks and using Red Sea still reads ammonia reads 2, nitrites 5 and...

www.reef2reef.com

nice job, great thread meets today's production demands considering the extreme cost of fish

Thanks for sharing! Tbh, fish are awesome, pay the price! This hobby is not cheap why make the disease introduction cheap, seems like a way to increase cost for hobbyists for no reason.

 

[Cthulukelele]

I think fishless starts seeding all life beforehand for several years sound great on paper but are unlikely to be strictly held to after 4-6 months. This is kind of like the "why do cars (fish) exists if we all took the bus (fishless) that's way more efficient plus all the issues with traffic (disease and predation) would disappear" argument. It sounds great but is impractical for most hobbyists and isn't even practiced with 100% rigidity by most of its most ardent supporters.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

Not sure why it’s impractical to wait a while before adding fish. Isn’t it more a question of patience and aesthetic preference? Sure, adding fish provides energy for the system but in my mind it shifts the focus to the needs of the fish rather than the needs of the system as a whole?

 

[ReefGeezer]

How do you guys that don't have fish provide organic carbon to the system?

 

[brandon429]

the coral food for sure

I would also strongly bet that if we sit anyone's live rock in clean saltwater in a clean white bucket, and let it slough off detritus over 48 hours, the bucket will test positive for carbon within live rock castings and they'll easily show up against the background, consider that input compounding within a system over time. there is more than one source to keep bacteria fed and carbon in the availability chain. In no way does staggering fish addition have impact on cycle quality, the surface area + contact time is all that matters, it's not true that bacteria only scale to match a bioload

they scale to match a degree of surface area, regardless of the bioload, bioload sets the rate of acquisition not the ending cycle ability- surface area sets that given enough time = updated cycling science

to make up for missing nitrogen and phosphorous from fish waste nutrient, part of the food loop, fishless systems are getting carbon + N+ P via rods food, reef roids et al

my reef hasn't had a fish in seventeen years and it's packed in coral, all off the various feeds. if I added fish right now, a tuned seneye would show no inability to handle that bioload-the surface area is substantial.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

It might be best to provide some context before answering the question. My system is only 10g, 10 months old, does not have a skimmer and I don’t use any chemical filtration. I also use collected natural seawater.

DOM and POM are provided by the natural seawater and interactions between light, coral, microfauna, biofilms and algae.

There may come a point when the balance tips, likely through coral additions or growth, and additional energy will undoubtedly be required. My choice then will be to add a fish or just target / broadcast feed.

 

[Max93]

It depends on the tank and how many fish you plan on having that significantly increases the risk of disease. A 180g tank will have about 20+ fish, a 10 gallon maybe 2 or 3.
There is much more risk of disease in larger tanks, and turning a big tank around is like turning the titanic it’s not easy and it is expensive to correct.